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Subject: Oni of Skulls Resolved Officially! rss

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Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
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NovaPrimeGA wrote:
The Oni of Skulls has 0 force unless you have the lowest honor at the province, then it has 3 force.


What? Zero force? That directly contradicts the rules. Figures have 1 force by default, and nothing on Oni of Skulls says this is not the case when you do not have the lowest honor in the province.
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Francis Rivest
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Santiago wrote:
NovaPrimeGA wrote:
The Oni of Skulls has 0 force unless you have the lowest honor at the province, then it has 3 force.


What? Zero force? That directly contradicts the rules. Figures have 1 force by default, and nothing on Oni of Skulls says this is not the case when you do not have the lowest honor in the province.


Yeah i really don't know why it would be 0 force.
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Steven Townshend
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Yes, unfortunately the response you received from CMON is incorrect.

The Oni of Skulls would have to be officially errata'd to make it correct.

As per page 16:
The Monster now counts as one of that Clan’s figures, just like its Daimyo, Shinto, and Bushi, and has 1 Force, unless otherwise stated.




The Oni of Skulls is assumed to have a force of 1 unless otherwise stated. What's otherwise stated is that instead of force 1, it has a force of 3 in provinces where you have the lowest honor.

Also page 7: "Each Monster has a special ability described on its Season card (their Force is still 1, unless otherwise stated)."

The special ability of the Oni of Skulls is that in the provinces where you have the lowest honor, it has a 3 force (not the default 1 force).

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Lil Keezy
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Some of the answer given doesn’t even make sense in context of the question. I’m pretty sure whoever replied to you had no idea what was being asked. As it directly contradicts the rules as written in multiple places, and the last bit isn’t even relevant. It also feels like the zero was a typo.

EDIT for clarification.
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George
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JDK002 wrote:
Some of the answer given doesn’t even make sense in context of the question. I’m pretty sure whoever replied to you had no idea what was being asked. As it directly contradicts the rules as written in multiple places, and the last bit isn’t even relevant. It also feels like the zero was a typo.

EDIT for clarification.


What part was wrong except for the zero force?

As you said, I think they must mistyped thinking it doesn't count for any additional force, so they put a 0 instead of the standard 1.
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What was the original question?
 
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Paul Robertson
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NovaPrimeGA wrote:
TheKingOfAverage wrote:
What was the original question?


So there is a problem with the Oni of Skulls in the game. An earlier thread also addressed this. The way the monster's ability card reads (don't have it in front of me) there is a plausible case that this monster adds +3 Force to its clan in every battle regardless of whether the figure is actually in the province. That means the clan that has the Oni of Skulls can pretty much run the table from the beginning (me and others have experienced this in these forums). However, it really made no sense to have such a broken mechanism, but I really wanted to hear from CMON if this was the case or it was actually intentional. CMON confirmed (via the email response I posted above) that the monster's powers are intended to influence ONLY the province where the figure is present physically. No monsters are designed with the intent of them being able to throw their powers across the board where the figures are not present physically. However, CMON had to go ahead and throw a monkey wrench into the conversation with their response mucking up the waters and saying that the figure asserts NO force (0) when it is in the clan with the lowest honor in a province, which contradicts the rulebook which says all monster default to 1 force. Whew that was long winded.


I am pretty sure this was only a question for you. Did you really think it was otherwise, I feel lik you are just trying to press CMON on something everyone understood and now raised more confusion. Did you play your first game and concoct this ludacris idea and never drop it. The card would make no sense the way you thought it was. This never needed clarification.

Edit: I read through your other thread were you are demanding clarification and it’s funny. You are literally the only person that thought this and you post a thread like it’s some question we have all been pondering finally answered. Literally no one else thought the card played the way you did, I just want that to be clear. There is no plausible cause to think this, you just have no grasp on this game or game balance in general to think otherwise.
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Frank Franco
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Does anyone actually believe that the Oni effects the entire board?
Does anyone actually think that is the intention of the design?

Yeah, Mr Official fucked up. But man, how much do we have to hear about this card? I've never seen such a fuss about something so damn obvious.
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Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
I've never seen such a fuss about something so damn obvious.

It's classical rules lawyering. "The card is not explicitly stating something so I am going to ignore the actual rules and interpret the text in a way that maximizes my ability to exploit it."

Everyone else knows that any figure's force is local to the province it is in, since otherwise it would not make sense to have multiple provinces in the first place.
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JadedGamer wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
I've never seen such a fuss about something so damn obvious.

It's classical rules lawyering. "The card is not explicitly stating something so I am going to ignore the actual rules and interpret the text in a way that maximizes my ability to exploit it."

Everyone else knows that any figure's force is local to the province it is in, since otherwise it would not make sense to have multiple provinces in the first place.


Is this a classical example of the American way of rules interpretation? My friends and me who played RS do have an European way of rules interpretation: one can do in the game what's written and what's logic.
In the case of Oni of Skulls this seems to be the logic way of 'reading' the Oni of Skulls: this Oni has a Force of 1 in the Province where he is present, which changes into a Force of 3 if the Player who owns this Oni has the lowest Honor of the Players who have Figures present in the same Province. So it's not necessary to have the lowest Honor of all the Players (=being at the bottom of the Honor Track), but only to have lower Honor than the other Players who are present in the same Province where the Oni of Skulls is located.

This kind of classical American rules lawyering is not an issue for us, eurogamers, I guess? So we will never do/say something like "The card is not explicitly stating something so I am going to ignore the actual rules and interpret the text in a way that maximizes my ability to exploit it."
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Wout wrote:
This kind of classical American rules lawyering is not an issue for us, eurogamers, I guess? So we will never do/say something like "The card is not explicitly stating something so I am going to ignore the actual rules and interpret the text in a way that maximizes my ability to exploit it."


Good Thing they still can enjoy an American Game despite those prejudices

And yeah, the 0 Force is wrong, but I can imagine that the answer was a bit careless because it's a "Do I really have to answer THIS" kind of Question. I'll continue playing it as I always have, the text on the card with the monster is actually talking about the monster that is depicted on the card just above the text and not some sort of general effect.
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Sam R
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I have never ever ever thought that it affects the whole board...

How could anyone ever interpret it to mean it affects the whole board? All figures have to have presence within the province...

They’re not gods that have omnipresence... although that would be a crazy expansion that breaks the game.
 
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George
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Sheesh everyone, lighten up on the guy.

According to his other thread it was his first game. It IS confusing on your first play when you don't know the rules very well and it isn't "obvious" yet what the power levels should be.

Here is another early thread where people discuss it similarly, so he isn't the first one.

I'm glad he got official confirmation. I wish more of these lesser questions would get cleared up by someone official... even if some are obvious after a play or two.
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Zoltán Dudás
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soosy wrote:

According to his other thread it was his first game. It IS confusing on your first play when you don't know the rules very well and it isn't "obvious" yet what the power levels should be.


And in the thread he gets help, clarification and reasoning from multiple players, yet he ignores all of them, still sticks to his interpretation and "house rules" it to the actual rules. Then even goes to CMON.

Its fine to be confused. Its fine to missread, missinterpret something. Its fine to ask for help in a thread. Its fine to ask CMON.
But its all rather pointless if you arent really open to any other suggestion than your own.
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Does anyone actually believe that the Oni effects the entire board?
Does anyone actually think that is the intention of the design?


Actually in a competitive setting, Rules as Written (RaW) take precedence over Rules as Intended (RaI), ie in X-wing, where top judges use RaW over RaI and make it clear that is the case, and has even forced the company FFG to modify its FAQ in order to be consistent with RaW.

It is obvious designers didn't intend that the monster spread its power, but it is a mistake as written and it needs to be FAQ'd. As you see, it even creates more confusion when you get a reply stating that the Oni has 0 power if you don't have the lowest honor, which is not obvious. The problem lies in that you need to take a posture, and it is better to stick with RaW because there will always be cases where the intention is not clear. And if every intention was always clear, there would not be any FAQ, which is clearly not the case.
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Wout wrote:
JadedGamer wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
I've never seen such a fuss about something so damn obvious.

It's classical rules lawyering. "The card is not explicitly stating something so I am going to ignore the actual rules and interpret the text in a way that maximizes my ability to exploit it."

Everyone else knows that any figure's force is local to the province it is in, since otherwise it would not make sense to have multiple provinces in the first place.


Is this a classical example of the American way of rules interpretation? My friends and me who played RS do have an European way of rules interpretation: one can do in the game what's written and what's logic.
In the case of Oni of Skulls this seems to be the logic way of 'reading' the Oni of Skulls: this Oni has a Force of 1 in the Province where he is present, which changes into a Force of 3 if the Player who owns this Oni has the lowest Honor of the Players who have Figures present in the same Province. So it's not necessary to have the lowest Honor of all the Players (=being at the bottom of the Honor Track), but only to have lower Honor than the other Players who are present in the same Province where the Oni of Skulls is located.

This kind of classical American rules lawyering is not an issue for us, eurogamers, I guess? So we will never do/say something like "The card is not explicitly stating something so I am going to ignore the actual rules and interpret the text in a way that maximizes my ability to exploit it."

I won’t say it happens a lot. But I do come across it on more then a random occasion. It tends to come in two forms. People who may not be seasoned in a diverse set of games. Therefor only think along lines of the few games they do play. Applying the rules logic to ALL games.

The second is much worse. The sort who repeatedly and pathologically try to twist the rules any time it’s advantageous for them.

The former is usually honest mistakes. The latter will usually get very combative and hostile when you call them out.

In any case I always remind them of that one near universal unwritten rule. “Explicit not Implicit”. If the game doesn’t explicitly say it, assume the answer is no.
 
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Zoltán Dudás
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Arah wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
Does anyone actually believe that the Oni effects the entire board?
Does anyone actually think that is the intention of the design?


Actually in a competitive setting, Rules as Written (RaW) take precedence over Rules as Intended (RaI), ie in X-wing, where top judges use RaW over RaI and make it clear that is the case, and has even forced the company FFG to modify its FAQ in order to be consistent with RaW.

It is obvious designers didn't intend that the monster spread its power, but it is a mistake as written and it needs to be FAQ'd. As you see, it even creates more confusion when you get a reply stating that the Oni has 0 power if you don't have the lowest honor, which is not obvious. The problem lies in that you need to take a posture, and it is better to stick with RaW because there will always be cases where the intention is not clear. And if every intention was always clear, there would not be any FAQ, which is clearly not the case.


Okay, but this is not a competitive game.
Also comparing CMON rulebook to for example an FFG LCG rule reference and expecting the same clarity and definitions is a bit unrealistic.

And most of all the question is: Is this really the case here? I mean that the RaW says that it affects all provinces?

Regarding figure force in rulebook we have: "All figures in the game have 1 Force, unless otherwise stated on a specific Season card a player has acquired."
So is this 1 force in the province the figure is in or in all? It is nowhere directly, explicitly stated that it affects only the province the figure is in or that it doesnt.
(At least I didnt find any, so please quote if there is. The only indirect reference is the Harvest description "..of the Provinces where their figures have more Force.." and you can deduce it from examples)

So when the River Dragon says Counts as 5 force you could also claim its in all provinces.
Yet you dont. Because it is kinda natural that a figure has force only in the area it is present in.
On the otherhand OP assumes figures only count force in their province except Oni of Skulls. There is no RaW that would back this up. The Oni's cards doesnt say this by itself with the "any Province" part. Because if it wanted to say to affect provinces regardless of actual figure presence then it would have been "all Province" or "every Province" to try to overrule the base premise.
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Sam R
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NovaPrimeGA wrote:
Wow, I had no idea I would be so pilloried for asking a question. This was an issue for me and many others who played this game. Maybe it wasn't for some of you, so if it wasn't then move on rather than jump in an spill your vitriol all over the place. This is a poor representation of the hobby and some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for being so nasty and hostile. This does nothing to advance the hobby and only serves to further the worst negative stereotypes about gamers. Shame on you.


I would like to apologize in behalf of all of BGG, but just so you know this is very common if you ask a question.
 
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LateShacka wrote:
NovaPrimeGA wrote:
Wow, I had no idea I would be so pilloried for asking a question. This was an issue for me and many others who played this game. Maybe it wasn't for some of you, so if it wasn't then move on rather than jump in an spill your vitriol all over the place. This is a poor representation of the hobby and some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for being so nasty and hostile. This does nothing to advance the hobby and only serves to further the worst negative stereotypes about gamers. Shame on you.


I would like to apologize in behalf of all of BGG, but just so you know this is very common if you ask a question.

Eh I dunno. Usually people are pretty responsive to legit rules questions. Right or wrong people are being a bit abrasive because there’s literally a thread about this, created by the OP, right below this thread on the rules forum, where he got plenty of helpful information, then pretty much disregards all of it.

This could have easily just been posted in that thread.
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NovaPrimeGA wrote:
This is a poor representation of the hobby and some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for being so nasty and hostile. This does nothing to advance the hobby and only serves to further the worst negative stereotypes about gamers. Shame on you.


Oh please.
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NovaPrimeGA wrote:
For those of you engaging in civil discussion still, this from CMON:

Sorry, Small error.
The Oni of Skulls has 1 force base, per page 16 of the rules, not 0.

Thank you

CMON INC.
1275 Ridgeland Parkway
Alpharetta, GA 30004, USA


This is a shocking turn of events.
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Honestly I can’t believe this was ever “a thing”. It should obviously only affect the province it’s in and arguing otherwise is abusing the boundaries of language to get an advantage. Occam’s Razor should have solved this before it began lol

Glad we got an official answer I guess so people can stop trying to bend this to be insanely better than it is.
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LateShacka wrote:
NovaPrimeGA wrote:
Wow, I had no idea I would be so pilloried for asking a question. This was an issue for me and many others who played this game. Maybe it wasn't for some of you, so if it wasn't then move on rather than jump in an spill your vitriol all over the place. This is a poor representation of the hobby and some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for being so nasty and hostile. This does nothing to advance the hobby and only serves to further the worst negative stereotypes about gamers. Shame on you.


I would like to apologize in behalf of all of BGG, but just so you know this is very common if you ask a question.


NovaPrimeGA wrote:
For those of you engaging in civil discussion still, this from CMON:

Sorry, Small error.
The Oni of Skulls has 1 force base, per page 16 of the rules, not 0.

Thank you

CMON INC.
1275 Ridgeland Parkway
Alpharetta, GA 30004, USA



I would like to show why I respond this way. OP intitially makes a thread where he questions the rule:

NovaPrimeGA wrote:
Wondering if this controversy has been resolved per an earlier thread. We played this for the first time today and we read the cards literally meaning that when we read "any province" it meant that the influence of the Oni of Skulls extended to other battles beyond which its figure was placed. We found other monsters with cards that had very specific wording that said "this province" so we could make no case for the Oni of Skulls NOT having its influence extend to other Provinces. The player that had this figure completely ran the table and it was clear that we weren't able to stop him early from the get go. This monster appeared way overpowered.

I'm curious as to why there is nothing from CMON on this or Eric Lang. I'm tempted to go to CMON Expo specifically to ask this question!

Thanks.


He gets several replies all clarifying the rule for him with 100% consensus.

But he ignores those and decides to respond to this:

poshniallo wrote:
Redking wrote:
I recommend my unofficial faq in the files section!


Does your faq mention which are official rulings by CMON and which are just our ideas? That's a big issue for me.


With:

NovaPrimeGA wrote:
I agree, although played as written seems broken to me and I'm going to house rule it going forward that Monster abilities only affect the province they are in, I'd also like for CMON to weigh in on this at some point. It seems as they have gotten bigger and more successful they aren't checking the forums like this. Maybe I will give it a shot and DM Eric Lang on here.


This is where I start to get annoyed a bit, he shows he has some axe to grind and maybe some other motives for this little soapbox he is creating.

Someone responds:

SwissQueso wrote:


Eric Lang doesn't clarify rules, he lives it up to the company that publishes/owns the game. (Although Im sure if you met him at a CON he would clarify it)

Also, the FAQ's seem like they do read here pretty often, I think to avoid any controversy they just don't post here.


Here is where his pension for drama really shows:

NovaPrimeGA wrote:


Wow really? Is Eric Lang such a big deal now that he's above connecting directly with his customers? That really changes the rose colored glasses I have had about him lately. Perhaps I have enough Eric Lang games now.


Wow, that escalated a little quickly.

Now he goes and clarifies the rule, that alone I don’t really care about. But he then goes and makes a new thread with a super dramatic title about the rule him and him alone questioned as finally being resolved. I don’t like his attitude. He ask questions and ignores the responses to continue on his other agenda. His questions aren’t question because he is just using this as a soap box to show CMON made a mistake and he is the hero solving it, even he himself wouldn’t play with the broken rules and decided to “houserule” it because it was so broken. This is less about clarification because it was clarified and he ignored it.


(I referred to the OP as he throughout post, maybe its a she, I don’t know, sorry not editing it)



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Zoltán Dudás
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NovaPrimeGA wrote:
You don't know anything about me. I am no hero and I don't want to be. I was trying be helpful to the larger gaming community and you just confirmed once again the reason why I play games less and less and have involved myself less and less on BGG over the ten years I have been gaming. I'm no newbie and I can see very clearly when something appears broken. I have countless years of playing games where games with apparently broken mechanics are surprisingly played as written even though it made no sense. Whatever burden you are carrying that made you decide to make me a target of your anger, I hope you get some help with it someday. I'm out of this discussion now.


You are the one who keeps making negative, personal comments about the community as a whole or directed at specific ppl.
And the same ppl you talk bad about are simply saying that you ignore any advice you got. Which is backed up by numerous quotes. Or argue why and how your reasoning was flawed.
Are they wrong? Yes or no? Its really that simple.
If yes, then explain why, so we can understand. If not, then how about you actually face it, accept it?

But what do you instead?
Instead actually trying the counter any such arguments or give reason to your behavior, you simply ignore (again) the factual part of any posts and resort to personal attacks and/or strike back at only personal comments while paintinh yourself as the victim.
There never really was a discussion. For that you would actually need to listen and react to what other ppl are saying.
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NovaPrimeGA wrote:
You don't know anything about me. I am no hero and I don't want to be. I was trying be helpful to the larger gaming community and you just confirmed once again the reason why I play games less and less and have involved myself less and less on BGG over the ten years I have been gaming. I'm no newbie and I can see very clearly when something appears broken. I have countless years of playing games where games with apparently broken mechanics are surprisingly played as written even though it made no sense. Whatever burden you are carrying that made you decide to make me a target of your anger, I hope you get some help with it someday. I'm out of this discussion now.



You seem to have a very histroic personality. May wanna keep it in check.
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