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Axis Empires: Totaler Krieg!» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question: "Collapsing" Britain/Russia in TK:AE rss

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Tony Watson
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Just a bit of background before I pose my questions. I've played the full campaign game of this twice in the last year, both times as the allied powers and neither game got past 1942 due to time constraints and our learning the new version of rules as we played. We have played the previous version of TK a number of times, so I have a decent knowledge of the general way the game system works.

This upcoming weekend I'm playing as the Axis for the first time, so I decided to familiarize myself with the option cards to speed things up. I see that Case Yellow and Operation Otto are mutually exclusive and represent East/West first strategies. And CY requires the discard of the Ostland Accord card as well.

The previous version of TK had Axis “Ultimatum” option cards aimed at Britain and Russia. Depending on how these worked out (die rolls) the target state could suffer a crisis, possibly leading to collapse, which would take the target out of the game for a while, very much like the Ostland Accord in TK:AE.

Which brings me to my questions. If the Axis pursues the historical path and plays CY against France, is it essentially giving up any chance of temporarily knocking Russia out of the war? And is it correct that there is now no way to temporarily take Britain out of the war at all?
 
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Adam Ruzzo
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There are two "Surrender" cards in the Britain and Russia decks. Each one imposes a temporary truce at the cost of giving the axis a permanent strategic hex (Allied "collapse" marker in strategic hex). This can result in the truce lasting for up to 2 or 3 seasons I believe.

These cards might be the implementation of what you are refering to from older Krieg games (I never played those). Instead of a condition the axis is trying to "force" on the allies to impose the collapse, it actually is on the allies to play these cards and make the terms (how long the truce will last). The reasons the allies might play these cards are few. I believe the only reason to ever play a surrender card is if you are worried about getting pushed off of the British Isles or pushed off the eastern side of the map as Russia. This allows you to stall for a few seasons while you get some reinforcements on the board at the cost of giving up a strategic hex.

Other than that and Ostland Accord, no, there is no way to "force" britain or russia out of the game.
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Marc Hanna
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Basically as Adam said. Either you can knock France out of the war with case Yellow and creating Vichy (which will eventually, in most cases, re-activate through card play as a Western Allied minor again, with reduced capabilities) or you can go for Case Otto/Ostland and subdue the Russians for a period of time. There is no card the Axis can play to subdue Britain so they have to invade and take out all of the British Isles to make it very tough for a return to the continent by the WA, especially if they go for a total effort against the Med holdings as well. However, they won't be able to push Russia as hard unless the WA have played notably poorly. And Russia can steamroller the Germans later on, it can be a real massacre. Enjoy and good luck! Keep an eye on those coastal ports, many an Axis player rues the day if they forget to garrison them by piling too many steps into Russia and neglecting the fact the WA can do some punching in 43 if they don't over-extend themselves... a lot more could be said but you'll discover all this over the course of 20 playings
 
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Tony Watson
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Bridger wrote:
There are two "Surrender" cards in the Britain and Russia decks. Each one imposes a temporary truce at the cost of giving the axis a permanent strategic hex (Allied "collapse" marker in strategic hex). This can result in the truce lasting for up to 2 or 3 seasons I believe.
Oops; I didn't think to look in the other decks for this type of card. In the two games I played as the allied factions, we never got that deep into the war and I was concentrating on the pre-ear and limited war cards. (One of the big differences between TK and TK:AE is that the WA and, especially, the Soviets, have a lot more options in the pre-war and limited war periods.)

Bridger wrote:
These cards might be the implementation of what you are refering to from older Krieg games (I never played those). Instead of a condition the axis is trying to "force" on the allies to impose the collapse, it actually is on the allies to play these cards and make the terms (how long the truce will last). The reasons the allies might play these cards are few.
Hmm. These situations have switched from something that may come about from a position of Axis strength to coming about from WA/Russian weakness. Interesting.

Thanks very much fro the helpful response.
 
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Tony Watson
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Honosbinda wrote:
Basically as Adam said. Either you can knock France out of the war with case Yellow and creating Vichy (which will eventually, in most cases, re-activate through card play as a Western Allied minor again, with reduced capabilities) or you can go for Case Otto/Ostland and subdue the Russians for a period of time. There is no card the Axis can play to subdue Britain so they have to invade and take out all of the British Isles to make it very tough for a return to the continent by the WA, especially if they go for a total effort against the Med holdings as well. However, they won't be able to push Russia as hard unless the WA have played notably poorly. And Russia can steamroller the Germans later on, it can be a real massacre.
One trend I am seeing in this version of the game is that the overall situation is markedly tougher for the Axis.

Thanks for your reply.
 
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Marc Hanna
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Well, 'maybe' it was too easy for the Axis in the earlier versions of the game such as Kreig and Totaler Kreig, that's what I recall to be the case.

The latest debate on comsimworld during the playtest was that the Axis is too strong in the beginning, but the Allies are favored to win if they don't blow it in the early game. However, there is not much going on over there anymore, so I've stopped visiting that site.

The upgrade kit new rules, counters and cards are supposed to balance it better, that is doubly/triply (or infinitely) true for the Pacific version. Currently scheduled for print in 2021 so don't hold your breath, although there are rumors it will be done sooner if they get enough pledge orders. Until I get an email from Decision Games directly, or they gives us a different date on the Decision games pledge website, that's the date I believe.

https://shop.decisiongames.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCod...


 
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Tony Doran
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Mark:

Here is what Doc has said about moving it forward:

“The fourth project now being promoted to the A group is Axis Empires Expansion Kit. This project has been in development and playtesting for several years and is nearly finished. It pushed to the top of the B group and is being promoted into the A group. Because it is far along in play testing and could be ready for printing by the end of 2018, your pledges could advance it into the 2019 group.”

https://shop.decisiongames.com/searchresults.asp?cat=31
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Marc Hanna
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Thanks Tony! But now their website has two pages with conflicting information! They should update the Axis Empires Expansion Kit Pledge page to match the Pledge Program Description page...
 
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Tony Doran
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Honosbinda wrote:
Thanks Tony! But now their website has two pages with conflicting information! They should update the Axis Empires Expansion Kit Pledge page to match the Pledge Program Description page...

+1
 
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Tony Watson
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Honosbinda wrote:
Well, 'maybe' it was too easy for the Axis in the earlier versions of the game such as Kreig and Totaler Kreig, that's what I recall to be the case.
That makes perfect sense. I don't think the designers involved in this series make changes without careful consideration, and I assume they were trying to remedy an imbalance that had arose.

My own experience with TK is limited, probably less than 20 games over 15 years and due to time constraints, not many of them went long enough to reach a real decision. So I didn't see that pro-Axis win trend myself. However, is was clear to me that done right, and with some luck, the Axis could more or less win the war (and, as we know, winning the war and winning the game are not the same thing in this series). Those collapse cards that were referenced were key to pulling that off. This was in no way a perfect plan, but Axis victory might be more likely than the historical records would suggest.

The USSR in TK had a different force pool, starting with junky 0-1-2/2-2-2 armies, which were eventually replaced by the 1-1-3/3-3-2s they they start with in TK:AE. (You can see these in the counter scans on the TK game page. That's a considerable increase in combat power for the full strength unit. Also the CRT in the previous version was more attacker friendly, and I think the revision in TK:AE was a good one.

 
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Tony Doran
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narodynot wrote:
Honosbinda wrote:
Thanks Tony! But now their website has two pages with conflicting information! They should update the Axis Empires Expansion Kit Pledge page to match the Pledge Program Description page...

+1
The DG website is now consistently saying the Expansion Kit will be produced in 2020.
 
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