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Subject: Feudum heavy Euro? rss

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Ignosis Gael
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If it is an euro, It made me reconnect with the euros.

It's more a 4x?

Or there's a thin line between a heavy euro and a 4x ?


Anyway its quite a very good game!

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Joe Pilkus
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Ignosis,

It is an exceptionally good game, and I have nothing like it in my collection, which is one of the primary reasons I backed their KS last year. It's a fairly heavy euro, but it's not a 4X in any classic sense. You do eXpand by obtaining areas via Influence and there's the potential for combat, but definitely not in the same way one thinks of eXtermination.

Cheers,
Joe
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chifanpoe
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Well said Joe. Amazing game at that.

Not many games that allow you to get your opponents drunk to temporarly take over that players actions(guild).
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Michael Frost

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I think it is a "heavy Euro" for the plethora of options it provides and the intricate "gears" that are at work in the game, that mesh together so finely, and which you have to learn to use and manipulate at the right time and with the right effort (e.g., the pushing and pulling in the Guilds).

It provides the players the options to turn it into whatever they want to try in light of the 6 different character pawns as well as the ability to choose whatever action they want in each round (unlike say a Scythe that says once you do "A" you can't do it next round: so here it is you want to do A every round, you can).

As for "exterminating", that, too, is an option. Thus, a player could use a Knight to fight an opponent's pawns and feudums, use a Noble to "Starve the People" (destroying either his Subjects or Serfs), and use a Merchant to make "Money is Influence" (to make yourself Ruler and turn his ruler into a Serf). I played a 2-player game where by the end of the game I had used the Merchant to rule 14 locations to my opponent's 3. But I still lost since he had his Serfs tend landscapes! That is the beauty, one player can act, you react. And vice versa.
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Patrick Schuette
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lgnosis wrote:
If it is an euro, It made me reconnect with the euros.

It's more a 4x?

Or there's a thin line between a heavy euro and a 4x ?


Anyway its quite a very good game!



There's not much (if any) exploration to be done in Feudum. Typically 4x games tend to involve some degree of discovery, but the board in Feudum is already laid out and there is not much unknown information on the map. It's not like you are sending scouts out to explore unknown parts of the map or are revealing new parts of the map over the course of the game.

It hits the remaining parts of 4X over the course of the game (especially expand and exploit), but yeah, this is a heavy Euro.
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birchbeer
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Maybe it's a new species altogether which should have some other distinction of comparison besides X degree "Euro." Maybe something more universal. Or at least something that shrugs off the "Ameritrash" pejorative. Maybe Feudum is the first EurAm! Or 5X!
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Zachary Homrighaus
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bamonson wrote:
Maybe it's a new species altogether which should have some other distinction of comparison besides X degree "Euro." Maybe something more universal. Or at least something that shrugs off the "Ameritrash" pejorative. Maybe Feudum is the first EurAm!


Isn't it just a Euro? Not sure why it's a new breed. It's a heavy euro with really nice evocative artwork, but it doesn't tell a story or anything. It has some unique mechanism and I have not seen the push/pull between the Guilds anywhere else, but it's not some new breed of game in my mind.
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Fear The Clown
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bamonson wrote:
Maybe it's a new species altogether which should have some other distinction of comparison besides X degree "Euro." Maybe something more universal. Or at least something that shrugs off the "Ameritrash" pejorative. Maybe Feudum is the first EurAm! Or 5X!


There is a new term coming out called eurotrash but that is being used for games like Gloomhaven, City of Kings and Perdition's Mouth. These sorts of low luck games that traditionally are dice based but are heavy on strategy and mix in some element of a euro. As with all these terms though it is loose and in the eye of the beholder. Much the same reason Jamey Stegmaier refers to Scythe as a 4x which if you loosely applied it there you could make a case Feudum is 4x as well. I don't personally care, I enjoy both games and the labels don't impact me 1 way or the other.

On the record I do personally consider Feudum a euro but like I said it doesn't matter. I hear people refer to Rising Sun as Ameritrash but it doesn't fit the bill for me since it doesn't utilize dice or have much narrative in spite of the heavy player interaction and unique abilities.
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Richard Mitchell
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This is an intriguing topic to me. I do not play many euro-games, in fact Feudum and Gaia Project are the only 2 that come to mind and both are in my collection. Typically I don't "shop" by type, I look at solo strength ( upcoming Queens Army brought me into the fold) and if I think my gf and gaming friends will want to get it to the table.

This game has been a great experience, and is making me want to look at a few other euro-style games. My guess is most in this thread have more experience with other games similar to the two I mentioned, but I'm curious if the "Heavy" part is coming from a more complex rule set in comparison to other euros? Ofc the game weight on BGG is subjective. We both read the rule book and follow the forum threads, and after an hour dove right in to the first of several games - has been great! That said, I do NOT feel its a slog to learn, granted many smaller circumstantial rules, but they are nicely supported by the main rule set. In contrast a game like Magic realm : you could easily spend two hours just learning how to Move . I love magic realm too.

I gave feudum a 3 for weight but will gladly change it to a higher mark if it is a better reflection in comparison to other euro games? ... While being complex it gets MUCH smoother to play after just a couple plays, indeed the strategy and depth remain VERY high ... which is why I'm enjoying it so very much.

Thanks for any thoughts or wisdom in advance, and any recommendations for other euros based on what I've said above. Trying not to derail the thread here. My main interest was the discussion of this games class as "Heavy Euro". I too have been calling it a euro for the reasons many have mentioned above.
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Phil McDonald
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realfist wrote:
This is an intriguing topic to me. I do not play many euro-games, in fact Feudum and Gaia Project are the only 2 that come to mind and both are in my collection. Typically I don't "shop" by type, I look at solo strength ( upcoming Queens Army brought me into the fold) and if I think my gf and gaming friends will want to get it to the table.

This game has been a great experience, and is making me want to look at a few other euro-style games. My guess is most in this thread have more experience with other games similar to the two I mentioned, but I'm curious if the "Heavy" part is coming from a more complex rule set in comparison to other euros? Ofc the game weight on BGG is subjective. We both read the rule book and follow the forum threads, and after an hour dove right in to the first of several games - has been great! That said, I do NOT feel its a slog to learn, granted many smaller circumstantial rules, but they are nicely supported by the main rule set. In contrast a game like Magic realm : you could easily spend two hours just learning how to Move . I love magic realm too.

I gave feudum a 3 for weight but will gladly change it to a higher mark if it is a better reflection in comparison to other euro games? ... While being complex it gets MUCH smoother to play after just a couple plays, indeed the strategy and depth remain VERY high ... which is why I'm enjoying it so very much.

Thanks for any thoughts or wisdom in advance, and any recommendations for other euros based on what I've said above. Trying not to derail the thread here. My main interest was the discussion of this games class as "Heavy Euro". I too have been calling it a euro for the reasons many have mentioned above.


To me, it's not about how heavy it is (though in general I prefer medium to heavy games), it's about how heavily it wears it's theme.

I'm not a big fan of euros either in general, but that isn't to say I can't enjoy one if there is both depth AND an interesting theme with mechanics that bring it to life. Pasted on themes need not apply.

So my question about this game is, is it a strong theme that wears it's mechanics well, or is it standard euro fodder of a heavier nature?
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Richard Mitchell
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The rules seem the bring the thematics to life in this game and it’s complex enough to keep me very interested Phil. There is substantial flavor in the rules of this game. Much of what some have labeled as “fiddiley” in fact really help deepen the experience. I’ve been pleasantly surprised overall. Great game.
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Ignosis Gael
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[/q]

There's not much (if any) exploration to be done in Feudum. Typically 4x games tend to involve some degree of discovery, but the board in Feudum is already laid out and there is not much unknown..[/q]

epoch tiles Landscapes its appear to me to be an exploration... Is it enough to be called exploration?
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Fear The Clown
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realfist wrote:
This is an intriguing topic to me. I do not play many euro-games, in fact Feudum and Gaia Project are the only 2 that come to mind and both are in my collection. Typically I don't "shop" by type, I look at solo strength ( upcoming Queens Army brought me into the fold) and if I think my gf and gaming friends will want to get it to the table.

This game has been a great experience, and is making me want to look at a few other euro-style games. My guess is most in this thread have more experience with other games similar to the two I mentioned, but I'm curious if the "Heavy" part is coming from a more complex rule set in comparison to other euros? Ofc the game weight on BGG is subjective. We both read the rule book and follow the forum threads, and after an hour dove right in to the first of several games - has been great! That said, I do NOT feel its a slog to learn, granted many smaller circumstantial rules, but they are nicely supported by the main rule set. In contrast a game like Magic realm : you could easily spend two hours just learning how to Move . I love magic realm too.

I gave feudum a 3 for weight but will gladly change it to a higher mark if it is a better reflection in comparison to other euro games? ... While being complex it gets MUCH smoother to play after just a couple plays, indeed the strategy and depth remain VERY high ... which is why I'm enjoying it so very much.

Thanks for any thoughts or wisdom in advance, and any recommendations for other euros based on what I've said above. Trying not to derail the thread here. My main interest was the discussion of this games class as "Heavy Euro". I too have been calling it a euro for the reasons many have mentioned above.


I consider Feudum 'heavy' much in the same vein as Lisboa. I don't find either game particularly more challenging to learn to play than many other euros, as in the info needed to start taking turns isn't a huge amount higher than say Scythe.

The 'heavy' weight in both games for me stems from the amount of effort it takes to start using that information effectively. Feudum and Lisboa both have many interlocking parts and it is difficult to see that and understand that in the beginning and then once you do understand that it is a whole other ladder to climb to be able to do that well.

Gaia Project is another that is pretty heavy, not so much for the interconnected parts but from grasping what it takes to get your engine going. Roughly I think it was 10 plays in Gaia before I hit my high score of 161, I would expect someone new to need 5 or 6 plays to get close to that point.

On your other topic, Anachrony is another heavier euro that is well designed. Its weight is similar to Gaia in that it will take a few plays to wrap your head around building your engine well. It is also an incredibly well designed game and if you are seeking a good solo game it is IMO the euro with the best solo game at the moment, it comes closer to emulating a human opponent than anything else.

Gaia Project is a close 2nd though Automa Factory who made that solo mode leans heavily to low admin rule breaking Automa that aim to provide the player the same opportunities a human opponent would while ending up with a comparable end score, the rule breaking being my big negative though it does work well.

I'm hoping Queen's Army will put Feudum in the same class as Anachrony with regard to the solo game.
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Benjamin
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Feudum as 4X is an interesting thought. It's not but it's close. Instead of false assumptions about the degree of killing or exploration I suggest to read a definition of 4X eg Wikipedia to understand why it isn't.

It's not an empire building game in the sense and feel of MoO and thus doesn't qualify as 4X.
It ticks all the boxes for the Xs but that's not what would make it a 4X game.
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