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Dead of Winter: A Crossroads Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Revealing crossroad card rss

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Artem Larionov
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It's not clear in rules so I have a question. If I meet the condition to trigger crossroad card should I do it obligatorily, or if I don't want it can I just discard this card in the end of round? There is nothing in rules that can prevent just discarding unwanted card.
 
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Matt Hindmarch
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You do not know the trigger of the card until you've triggered it. The card must then be resolved.
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Artem Larionov
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I'm speaking about a player with crossroad card, should he obligatorily reveal it or not?
 
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Matt Hindmarch
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If the card is triggered it is revealed and resolved. There is no discarding an unwanted card that has been triggered.
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Artem Larionov
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But why not?
There is nothing to prevent potential cheating if that's how it works.
Also it can be a part of gameplay, before noone is exiled players can discard unwanted cards, but when there is exiled one he will make game harder for other players by playing bad crossroad cards and not playing good ones or traitor can make a move by revealing really bad crossroad card.
 
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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ArtyBGG wrote:
There is nothing to prevent potential cheating if that's how it works.


Don't play cooperative or semi-cooperativeany games with cheaters.
Corollary of Wheaton's Law.
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JD
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Matt is right. Once the trigger happens the person holding the card must resolve it. Not sure how that will encourage cheating? We play that the person holding the card only reads the trigger line so they don't even know if its a potentially good or bad outcome.

Edit: or get the crossroads companion app, then you can't see anything past the trigger. Hopefully they update iOS version with TLN soon
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Artem Larionov
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Ok, first of all, thanks guys for clarification of rules.
All I need was to understand mindset for this game. Is it more semicooperative story game or competitive one? My interpretation of rules was inclined to competitive side. That is where cheating can occures. If a player wants to win at all costs he can just cheat with crossroad card that will make him lose a game. He can just say: "Nope, nothing triggered, move on" and there is no way to check him.
I like your suggestion to read only trigger line, it mitigates this problem.

 
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Nigel Clarke
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It's another player that handles the crossroad card, not the active player.
 
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Artem Larionov
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I know, but an effect of crossroad card influences possibility to win for all players, so player with crossroad card can be interested in revealing a crossroad card or not.
 
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Aaron Montgomery
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ArtyBGG wrote:
My interpretation of rules was inclined to competitive side. That is where cheating can occur. If a player wants to win at all costs he can just cheat with crossroad card that will make him lose a game.


I think this is true in any type of game (competitive, coop, even solo). If you are playing with people who you need to police to prevent cheating, then you are probably playing with the wrong people.
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Artem Larionov
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My usual group doesn't like cheating.
It's just in few dozens of different games that I played it's first one where I saw a very simple way to cheat in a game, and it feels strange to me.
 
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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ArtyBGG wrote:
My usual group doesn't like cheating.
It's just in few dozens of different games that I played it's first one where I saw a very simple way to cheat in a game, and it feels strange to me.


There are lots of games with hidden information that is mandatory to reveal in certain situations, some of which are much more competitive in nature than DoW.
If you're worried about people cheating in these games I think you have a bigger problem.

If you're only worried about hypothetical cheating, then I believe you're overthinking this one.

One thing that can happen with Crossroads triggers, though, is accidentally forgetting, and then you just correct the game state to the best of your ability and move on.
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Artem Larionov
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Yeah, maybe just overthinking. I've just bought it and learning rules now. At first glance it looks like missed opportunity for me to give no tactic option for traitor and exiled one to alter crossroads deck (something similar to altering crisis deck in BSG). But it is just from mechanics point, from thematic point of semicooperative story game I think it was made right,but just a little bit clunky.
 
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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ArtyBGG wrote:
Yeah, maybe just overthinking. I've just bought it and learning rules now. At first glance it looks like missed opportunity for me to give no tactic option for traitor and exiled one to alter crossroads deck (something similar to altering crisis deck in BSG). But it is just from mechanics point, from thematic point of semicooperative story game I think it was made right,but just a little bit clunky.



If you are worried about this situation, then you would also have to worry about cheaters in UNO, or any number of other trick-taking games where a player must follow the pattern if they can, from their hidden hand of cards.
If you wouldn't trust this player to play Uno with you, then don't play Dead of Winter with them.
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Artem Larionov
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Funny, I had a glance once on some game similar to UNO played by my seven year old nephew and I had clear impression that player can withhold cards, even after reading rules to that game. Looks like the same pattern of thought of me. Funny.
 
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JD
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If you have a device for apps check out the Dead of Winter Crossroads Companion App. I think it should solve your worry:

1) You are only given the trigger to begin with, no further information
2) They have some great voice acting that reads the crossroads scenario for you
3)The person holding the phone can't even see the outcomes of each option only what each thematic story choice is.
4)Only after everyone (or single person or whatever) votes will the results be revealed.

That way no one can cheat even if they wanted to as some crossroads outcomes will help the colony and some will hurt. Without memorizing them it's tough to know sometimes how it will impact the colony.
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Flavio Santos
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ArtyBGG wrote:
Funny, I had a glance once on some game similar to UNO played by my seven year old nephew and I had clear impression that player can withhold cards, even after reading rules to that game. Looks like the same pattern of thought of me. Funny.


Yeah and it's weird. Looking at board games and thinking about how you could cheat, weird.
 
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Artem Larionov
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jaydash808 wrote:
If you have a device for apps check out the Dead of Winter Crossroads Companion App.

Thanks for this suggestion, it's a very nice option. But this app is in english and my group have a lot of trouble with it, cause it's not a native language for us.
 
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Artem Larionov
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Flaviorbs wrote:
Yeah and it's weird. Looking at board games and thinking about how you could cheat, weird.

Maybe i'm just a fan of tight elegant game design where there is no room to simple cheating. If there is a way to cheat systems easy than it should be a feature of game systems not a bug.
 
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Jerod S.
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My fix is I simply don't play with people who cheat. Mistakes can be made sure. Outright cheating gets you a permanent ban at the game table and as a friend in my book.
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Chuck Hurd
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Lumpfuggit wrote:
My fix is I simply don't play with people who cheat. Mistakes can be made sure. Outright cheating gets you a permanent ban at the game table and as a friend in my book.

Agreed. There is no room at the game table for cheaters. What a shallow feeling win that must be anyway.
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David "Davy" Ashleydale
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I was teaching Love Letter to someone and I said, "When someone plays a Guard and correctly guesses what card you have in your hand, you have to admit that you have it, discard it, and you are out of the round." They said, "But couldn't I lie and say that I don't have it? There would be no way for you to prove that I did have it." And I replied, "You could lie, but that would be against the rules of the game. Even though it would be easy for you to do and unenforceable, the rules state that you must reveal the card if they are correct. Doing anything other than that would mean that you are playing Love Letter incorrectly."

If you play Spades or Hearts, there is a rule that you have to follow suit if you can. Again, it's pretty much unenforceable. But doing anything other than following suit if you can is not playing the game how its authors intended.

I do see what you mean -- it bothers me, too, and seems less elegant when a game has unenforceable rules.

Interestingly, there's a trick taking game called Port Royal in which the rules state that you can't play a trump card unless you can't follow suit. So when you play a trump card, you have to put a marker on that suit to indicate that you are out of that suit. Then, if you later play a card of that suit, the other players may notice that you have a marker on that suit and they will call it out and you get penalized. However, the rules actually state that you may do this on purpose if you think you can get away with it. That actually seems much more elegant to me. And you would be surprised how often players actually get away with it!

As for the Crossroads cards in Dead of Winter, I think that what the designers were really trying to do was to simulate playing a computer game. If it were a computer game, the triggers would happen automatically. But since it's a board game, they needed the players to act as the computer program. So the players aren't supposed to have a choice as to whether the Crossroads trigger or not -- they are just doing the job of the neutral board game itself.
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Jethro
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ArtyBGG wrote:
My interpretation of rules was inclined to competitive side. That is where cheating can occures. If a player wants to win at all costs he can just cheat with crossroad card that will make him lose a game.


Competitive play has nothing to do with cheating.

If this is a genuine concern for you group, then maybe your table isn't yet mature enough to play Dead of Winter or any one of the other 1000s of games with hidden information components.

These threads are always so weird. "If the rules say do something, couldn't I simply not do that thing?"

Yes, you could - find a new hobby though.
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Artem Larionov
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TheWhistler1967 wrote:

Competitive play has nothing to do with cheating.

Competitive play can urge people for cheating. It's not rare in competition of any sort.

TheWhistler1967 wrote:

If this is a genuine concern for you group, then maybe your table isn't yet mature enough to play Dead of Winter or any one of the other 1000s of games with hidden information components.

I have a trust in my group. But I have some trust issues with new people so it will be a little bit tensely for me to play a game with unenforceable rules with them.
 
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