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Subject: Replayability rss

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The One and Only Noir
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I'm a bit worried about the Replayability. Are the Scenarios Storydriven? If so, how is it possible to keep it exciting? I know there is the possibility to just change the tactics one used when played a scenario first ... But I don't think that this can keep the excitement. I love Mice & Mystics and Mansions of Madness ... but once I played the scenarios, I usually don't play them again ... because I know everything that could thrill me. I know If I go left, there will be a Monster waiting. Or I know that the artefact I'm searching for will be in the dining room behind a painted picture. I LOVE a good storydriven game ... but almost every single story driven miniature game I played wasn't very interesting after playing it once.

How does "Hellboy - The Board Game" keep my attention after I played the Scenarios?
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Mats Larsson
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The BPRD Archives expansion, included in the pledge, will sort you out. Mantic will explain this further in an upcoming update.
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Dave J
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Over on the designer thread he goes into it about how replayable it is and links to their blog that discussion how it’s replayable.

Sure the final confrontation the “story” will be the same. But for starters you can play the game with a variety of player counts that will change things up and he individual encounters will be more random.

Also one of the expansions in the pledge has a system to create your own cases.
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Ciaran M
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Have a read of this blog post by the designer and it talks directly about how replayability will be added/feature in the game:

https://www.needycatgames.com/blog/2018/4/16/hellboy-week-ca...
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Brian Jones
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ezeqiel wrote:

Have a read of this blog post by the designer and it talks directly about how replayability will be added/feature in the game:

https://www.needycatgames.com/blog/2018/4/16/hellboy-week-ca...


There is almost no real detail in that blog post, other than "there will be a difference in each case file based on random card draw/interactions".

I am in the same boat as the OP, and unless some serious new details are revealed, it looks to me like the game will have very low replayability. The saving grace could be that there will be huge community support with lots of fan made scenarios, but that is never a guarantee.

Unfortunately, it will be hard for people to make solid predictions for the game as it is in such an early state. I do not think there is any way this game is delivered by the Feb 2019 date promised in the Kickstarter. It looks like the rules are not final, art isn't final, moulds for minis not even close yet. And Mantic has a delivery date concurrent with Chinese New Year shake If they go off schedule by even a week or two, that means delays of 1-2 additional months due to the holiday.

I am a huge Hellboy fan, and really want to see this game succeed, but it looks to me like Mantic is doing their best to cock it up. But they are well on their way to millions in backing, so not sure they care.
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Dave J
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So here's a question. What would make it more replayable other than having random encounter draws and interactions?

This game is very much scenario driven, so yes you will ultimately meet the same boss at the end of the case, but who you take and what you do to get there will be different each time. I'm sure playing the same case as HB solo will feel very different from HB and Abe to HB,ABE and LIZ together etc.
 
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Brian Jones
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typo360 wrote:
So here's a question. What would make it more replayable other than having random encounter draws and interactions?

This game is very much scenario driven, so yes you will ultimately meet the same boss at the end of the case, but who you take and what you do to get there will be different each time. I'm sure playing the same case as HB solo will feel very different from HB and Abe to HB,ABE and LIZ together etc.


Many, many more scenarios would also do the trick - each scenario doesn't need to be super replayable if there are dozens more to play. But that kind of thing takes a lot of time and attention to detail.
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Dave J
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bclayj wrote:
typo360 wrote:
So here's a question. What would make it more replayable other than having random encounter draws and interactions?

This game is very much scenario driven, so yes you will ultimately meet the same boss at the end of the case, but who you take and what you do to get there will be different each time. I'm sure playing the same case as HB solo will feel very different from HB and Abe to HB,ABE and LIZ together etc.


Many, many more scenarios would also do the trick - each scenario doesn't need to be super replayable if there are dozens more to play. But that kind of thing takes a lot of time and attention to detail.


Gotcha I totally get more scenarios would make the game itself more repayable. I was stuck pondering on making any given scenario itself more repayable.

I also want to point out that the SGs are producing more scenarios as well as "confrontations" which are the boss battles. So that adds to the replayablity of a single case with a different boss battle.

But I'm with you. More scenarios the better!
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John
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My main concern with replayability is the lack of a campaign narrative hook outside the game or lack of a level up mechanic / searching for loot upgrades during the game.

Without either of these mechanics I'm not sure how compelled I'll be to pick playing this game over my other "dungeon crawls".

The gameplay seems more like a quick game of attrition where you don't level up your character during the game, you just try to survive and get to the end boss as quickly as possible.
 
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Dave J
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So why we referring it as a dungeon crawl? Maybe that’s the problem. It’s just not.
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The One and Only Noir
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As I'm watching the Let's Play right now, I'll agree with "It's not a Dungeon Crawler". It's more like Mansions of Madness with a more action-based gameplay.

I'd love to know, how much "Story" we will get. Is there more story than small texts on the cards? Will there be a Story-book or something like that?
 
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John
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typo360 wrote:
So why we referring it as a dungeon crawl? Maybe that’s the problem. It’s just not.


There are similarities between Hellboy and the designer's other game, Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower which is a dungeon crawl.

This game is essentially like a dungeon crawl except there is no level up / loot that you usually associate with an rpg.

You lay down tiles as you explore, the action is mostly combat focused as each new tiles brings traps and monsters to fight. You work your way to killing a big bad boss at the end just like you would in most other dungeon crawls. Even the investigation action is just rolling dice to pick up clues that power you up to fight the end boss.

There is no story book, just a sentence or two for each case file card from what I can tell. It doesn't have an app that provides the atmosphere, music, random story that Mansions of Madness has. The actual gameplay is very much like a dungeon crawl with a Hellboy IP.
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typo360 wrote:
So why we referring it as a dungeon crawl? Maybe that’s the problem. It’s just not.


Yeah. I hear HB plays just like Agricola.

Look at the SG's for additional scenarios. Most of them add mechanics like deckbuilding, worker placement, and salad.

 
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Brant Benoit
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typo360 wrote:
So why we referring it as a dungeon crawl? Maybe that’s the problem. It’s just not.


I dunno....it reeaaally looks like a dungeon crawler to me.....
 
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Marcel Claxton
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TheOneAndOnlyNoir wrote:
As I'm watching the Let's Play right now, I'll agree with "It's not a Dungeon Crawler". It's more like Mansions of Madness with a more action-based gameplay.

I'd love to know, how much "Story" we will get. Is there more story than small texts on the cards? Will there be a Story-book or something like that?


I have the exact same thoughts and concerns. I too felt a strong resemblence to Mansions of Madness, only less worked out and less story driven. And that's a huge deal. Hellboy is ALL about story. But, I remain hopeful that Mantic will take care of this in some satisfying way.
 
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Brian Jones
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arcubal wrote:
TheOneAndOnlyNoir wrote:
As I'm watching the Let's Play right now, I'll agree with "It's not a Dungeon Crawler". It's more like Mansions of Madness with a more action-based gameplay.

I'd love to know, how much "Story" we will get. Is there more story than small texts on the cards? Will there be a Story-book or something like that?


I have the exact same thoughts and concerns. I too felt a strong resemblence to Mansions of Madness, only less worked out and less story driven. And that's a huge deal. Hellboy is ALL about story. But, I remain hopeful that Mantic will take care of this in some satisfying way.


I guess I can say I am hopeful as well, but I am not optimistic about actually seeing it. The game seems quite unfinished for now - maybe more story elements and scenarios will be added, but I do not think there is any way they can add all that and still hit a Feb 2019 date.
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Phil Gee
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Story driven scenarios, plenty of them, encounter revising card draws each playthrough that deflect the story revealing journey and a built in scenario creator for home and fan produced missions/stories.

All bases covered
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Brant Benoit
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bclayj wrote:
arcubal wrote:
TheOneAndOnlyNoir wrote:
As I'm watching the Let's Play right now, I'll agree with "It's not a Dungeon Crawler". It's more like Mansions of Madness with a more action-based gameplay.

I'd love to know, how much "Story" we will get. Is there more story than small texts on the cards? Will there be a Story-book or something like that?


I have the exact same thoughts and concerns. I too felt a strong resemblence to Mansions of Madness, only less worked out and less story driven. And that's a huge deal. Hellboy is ALL about story. But, I remain hopeful that Mantic will take care of this in some satisfying way.


I guess I can say I am hopeful as well, but I am not optimistic about actually seeing it. The game seems quite unfinished for now - maybe more story elements and scenarios will be added, but I do not think there is any way they can add all that and still hit a Feb 2019 date.


Even on the front page it states that the game is still in development and that's why cards and token numbers are not finalized.
OK.
So, development is still to finish. And production is yet to start. And numbers of game elements have yet to be finalized.
This still has to go through proofing. Licensor approval. And then production. In 9 months.

I would hope that the next 9 months would be for development alone, especially considering that the number of components hasn't been finalized.

I'm still waiting to see more on the game itself before I commit to more than 1 pound.
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Brian Jones
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Ghool wrote:
bclayj wrote:
arcubal wrote:
TheOneAndOnlyNoir wrote:
As I'm watching the Let's Play right now, I'll agree with "It's not a Dungeon Crawler". It's more like Mansions of Madness with a more action-based gameplay.

I'd love to know, how much "Story" we will get. Is there more story than small texts on the cards? Will there be a Story-book or something like that?


I have the exact same thoughts and concerns. I too felt a strong resemblence to Mansions of Madness, only less worked out and less story driven. And that's a huge deal. Hellboy is ALL about story. But, I remain hopeful that Mantic will take care of this in some satisfying way.


I guess I can say I am hopeful as well, but I am not optimistic about actually seeing it. The game seems quite unfinished for now - maybe more story elements and scenarios will be added, but I do not think there is any way they can add all that and still hit a Feb 2019 date.


Even on the front page it states that the game is still in development and that's why cards and token numbers are not finalized.
OK.
So, development is still to finish. And production is yet to start. And numbers of game elements have yet to be finalized.
This still has to go through proofing. Licensor approval. And then production. In 9 months.

I would hope that the next 9 months would be for development alone, especially considering that the number of components hasn't been finalized.

I'm still waiting to see more on the game itself before I commit to more than 1 pound.


That is 9 months till the games are supposed to be in backers hands. At least 2-3 months of that time will be shipping, customs and delivery.

There is not a chance in Hell they meet that date. Mantic have been very communicative and involved in the Kickstarter comments. They would do themselves a favor to be more honest and change that delivery date by pushing it back at least 5 months.
 
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Rich Moore
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Why are we arguing about the delivery dates for a Kickstarter project? Almost every Kickstarter I have ever backed is 6 months to a year past the date they said they would be delivered. I assume Hellboy will be no different and will be pleasantly surprised if it is. If this reality is a deal breaker for anyone that’s fine too, but we don’t need to keep beating the same dead horse.
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Nick Hughes
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Why are we discussing it in a replayability post? Delivery times are being discussed in other threads do we need it here as well?
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Marcel Claxton
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jokeroz wrote:
Why are we discussing it in a replayability post? Delivery times are being discussed in other threads do we need it here as well?


I concur! Let's get back to...er...replaying Hellboy. Yeah! That's it. Now, where were we? Oh yes.

Replayability is notoriously tough when it comes to story-driven games as opposed to strategy-driven games. Especially in co-ops. I'm not talking theme and mechanics, but really well-developed(?) storylines like those in Pandemic Legacy, Mansions of Madness and T.I.M.E. Stories. Strategy games, however (Scythe, 7 Wonders, Dead of Winter, and tons more) focus on players being able to change how they play in order to get ahead. So, these type of games automatically lend themselves to a higher replayability. A game such as Gloomhaven tends to land in the middle but they have to compensate by churning out tons of content and a HUUUUUGE box (nothing my wife will let me get away with).

So, Hellboy. How does that (seem to) score on Story and Strategy? Well, I think most of the backer concerns tend to relate to there not being enough story to satisfy them. The fact that most of the videos have centered around the play-by-play of the game, I'm prone to say that Mantic and James really wanted to hammer down the strategy of this co-op, rather than make fluff pieces that focus on atmosphere and narrative. And, although it pains me to say this, cuz I'd LOOOOVE to immerse myself in the Mignolaverse, I think that means this game is more strategy than story. The upside, however, is that replayability, if not guaranteed, will be secured. James has created a slew of interacting mechanics (Doom Deck/Case Files/Encounter Cards/Villains & Minions) right out of the gate (as in: IN THIS KS) that I feel like every game will have familiar aspects, but as a whole will be a vastly different experience.
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Jonny Y
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arcubal wrote:
jokeroz wrote:
Why are we discussing it in a replayability post? Delivery times are being discussed in other threads do we need it here as well?


I concur! Let's get back to...er...replaying Hellboy. Yeah! That's it. Now, where were we? Oh yes.

Replayability is notoriously tough when it comes to story-driven games as opposed to strategy-driven games. Especially in co-ops. I'm not talking theme and mechanics, but really well-developed(?) storylines like those in Pandemic Legacy, Mansions of Madness and T.I.M.E. Stories. Strategy games, however (Scythe, 7 Wonders, Dead of Winter, and tons more) focus on players being able to change how they play in order to get ahead. So, these type of games automatically lend themselves to a higher replayability. A game such as Gloomhaven tends to land in the middle but they have to compensate by churning out tons of content and a HUUUUUGE box (nothing my wife will let me get away with).

So, Hellboy. How does that (seem to) score on Story and Strategy? Well, I think most of the backer concerns tend to relate to there not being enough story to satisfy them. The fact that most of the videos have centered around the play-by-play of the game, I'm prone to say that Mantic and James really wanted to hammer down the strategy of this co-op, rather than make fluff pieces that focus on atmosphere and narrative. And, although it pains me to say this, cuz I'd LOOOOVE to immerse myself in the Mignolaverse, I think that means this game is more strategy than story. The upside, however, is that replayability, if not guaranteed, will be secured. James has created a slew of interacting mechanics (Doom Deck/Case Files/Encounter Cards/Villains & Minions) right out of the gate (as in: IN THIS KS) that I feel like every game will have familiar aspects, but as a whole will be a vastly different experience.


The closest things I can think to the story mechanics in this game would be Mansions Of Madness or Arkham Horror the LCG, both systems have a random encounter deck of either events or monsters, Hellboy has this too. But what those games have are also random story events that don't alter the end story as much, but provide a little bit of mystery in what event might come next. In Mansions of Madness the app will randomize some significant items or events. Usually, this is location based, so random room. In Arkham Horror, some locations and events have multiple different text and at the start of the game you randomly pick one. So even though you know that event A is coming up next, you are not sure which outcome it will be.

Hellboy story seems to follow a ordered deck that is used to tell a story. Some mechanic where instead of just reading the next event, you randomly select one of the next 5 cards to be the event. Depending, how elaborate and complex you want to make the story, you could build it branching events and encounters, which could provide an extra level of replayability.
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Rich Moore
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I guess I'm hoping to see some missions based on some of the short stories from Hellboy (like the japanese heads, Baba Yaga, etc.) So, adding more cases may help there.

Of course if there is a limited number of cases, there needs to be enough variability (difficulty, different bosses, minions, possible endings) to warrant replaying the same case over and over. It seems this is the route they are trying to go.
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Nick Hughes
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Currently:

Case Files: 3 (Base Game) + 1 (Conq. Worm) + 6 (Stretch Goals)
Agents: 4 (BG) + 2 (SG)
Bosses: 3 (BG) + 1 (CW) + 7 (SG)

then

Rookie Mode, Hardcore Mode

Not sure how easy it is to have alternate bosses in each scenario but there is already to my mind some decent re-playability there when you look at mixing Case Files, Agents and Bosses.

Hopefully more Scenarios are unlocked as we go
 
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