Mateusz M
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I just found out VERY interesting thread on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/conceptart/comments/853k2g/the_trut...

It looks like Jakub Rozalski could copy / pasting elements from other artists work and paints over other artists paintings and photos, not only using them as reference but copying 1:1...

It's already one month old thread and i didn't heard about it before... But i think it deserves more attention and maybe some official response from Jakub and/or Jamey Stegmaier. I'm not the one to judge, i'm not here to throw the stones - it's place for professional reply from someone more experienced in pro digital art. But i have to admit, it's very concerning after all...

EDIT:
Response from Jamey:
jameystegmaier wrote:
This is the first that I've heard of any of this, and I will be looking into it.

So He will check if this is true. There's no point in overreacting in this thread without hard evidences / pro reply...

EDIT 2:
Another response from Jamey:
jameystegmaier wrote:
First, I applaud participants of these conversations for looking out for artists. It’s awesome that you’re looking for credit to be given where credit is due, especially to photographers.

Second, if I commission an artist to paint me a picture of a pig, I sure hope they look at photos of pigs while painting them. Artists have been using models for centuries. That said, if a specific element of a specific photo is used as reference for the illustration, credit should be given to the photographer.

Third, Jakub addressed questions about image references 2 years ago on BoardGameGeek: “I used some references, my own photos, and photos from the internet, in several (maybe 10, maybe more), I simply track photo in 1:1, for some elements like: horses or pigs, cow, or specific parts, even some characters.” This is pretty transparent—there doesn’t appear to be any big cover-up or conspiracy.

Fourth, part of the assertation seems to be that Jakub is a hack because he “traced” some animals and people. “Traced” is a bit of a misnomer—if you asked me to trace a photo of a tiger, it wouldn’t look anything close to Jakub’s illustration. I believe Jakub when he says he painted these animals and people while referencing the photographs (not by digitally painting over them). I would point to Jakub’s canvas paintings as evidence that his talents do not require photobashing.

Fifth, perhaps the most troubling accusation was that Jakub created “fake tutorials” (step-by-step in progress illustrations) to make it seem like those illustrations came from his imagination instead of reference photos/images. This is troubling to me because it’s stated as fact, yet no evidence of it is provided. The closest is an image from artist John Park that depicts a sideview of a mech, but the mech is very different from the one in Jakub’s step-by-step illustration.

I’ll end where I began: I believe in giving credit where credit is due. Today I’ve e-mailed with Jakub about crediting any photographers from images where he used a specific animal or person as reference, and he’s going to do his best to find them (this is like me telling you to replicate a specific Google Image search from 4 years ago—it isn’t easy). In turn, I hope you will keep an open mind about giving Jakub credit as well. This is a two-way street. To completely discredit his illustrations—each of which is a complex amalgamation of different elements in the foreground, midground, and background—just because he used some reference photos for some animals and people doesn’t seem fair.


EDIT3:
Just to be clear - I opened that thread on bgg, but I DID NOT posted it anywhere else. Also I didn't created Reddit thread that I linked here. I saw some conspiracy theories about that, so i want to end that kind of speculations...
  • [+] Dice rolls
Germany
Mannheim
Deutschland
flag msg tools
Avatar
Well, every Illustrator will get references, this can go so far as tracing, especially in mate painting, which Rozalskis Style is akin to. Also, it's not just tracing, you need to know what you are doing, especially putting together components in the right perspectiv, using color theory, creating atmosphere. Fun fact: Renaissance Painters dd the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=450pvHhH3Zg

The ones who didn't use optics support still put the scene before them. Being able to draw something from memory is a skill quite unique to some very few comic artists. Illustrators will always need reference or even trace something.

So yeah, that reddit dude posting that? He should try to do anything close to Rozalskis Art, using tracing, and then we can talk again.
30 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sebastian Zarzycki
Poland
Poznań
Wielkopolskie
flag msg tools
spiral out
badge
keep going
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Incredibul wrote:
So yeah, that reddit dude posting that? He should try to do anything close to Rozalskis Art, using tracing, and then we can talk again.


You are free to disagree, but using this kind of argument isn't exactly mature.
97 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tiago Soares
Ireland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow...

I really love Scythe's art and I even know a lot of people that bought Rozalki's paintings to hang on their wall but if this is true, I'll be extremely disappointed and I don't know if I'll look at it the same way ever again. :/
18 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dusty Craine
United States
Linden
Michigan
flag msg tools
https://www.youtube.com/themillshow
badge
Me
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jakub has posted pictures of oil paintings he's done in the exact same style on his Instagram. It seems harder to "cut and paste" in the way it is being implied that he does. I think using reference images are a very common practice.

I'm not saying the following examples prove he's innocent of what he's being accused of, but it seems to me that what he's doing isn't any different than people who can draw photo-realistic pictures of celebrities or something, like amazing detailed work that is of a photograph. Now maybe it's different because those people don't have the same level of being celebrated, I don't know. But here are several links to several actual, NON-DIGITAL paintings by Jakub.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bh6jZvFne16/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BiKF0lYHUfb/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BiWdpPjHzk9/

-shrugs- I guess I'm not seeing the problem here. He isn't taking someone else's work. He's interpreting it. He still has to lay down every brush stroke. He still has to pass is through many revisions.

Also, please note that I'm only speaking to the idea that "his work looks like this other work". If there are other topics that have arisen, I don't know about them and I'm not speaking to them.

mmag wrote:
But i think it deserves more attention and maybe some response from Jakub and/or Jamey Stegmaier - I have to admit, it's very concerning after all...
I don't see a single reason why Jamey should provide a response to this.

edit: Added response to quote above. I didn't want to post twice in a row.
38 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ath Papath
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would wait for a professional reply by someone experienced in photo editing and digital art, instead of pointing the finger.

Jakub and Jamie will definitely answer those allegations.

Even if some part is true, artists always get inspired by others and borrow elements. Scythe and all the 1920+ art is very beautiful no matter what.

9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Middleton
United States
Laramie
Wyoming
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It seems to be true.

If you look at the entire feed there are lots more images and examples of copying others works and mech designs. Some of the mech designs are almost exact copies.

What's damning seems to be the fact tutorials to hide behind.


Disappointing.
26 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neal McClatchey
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Game is still fun.
48 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noel
United States
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Why should Jamie answer for anything to do with this?

I don’t see a problem with the artist’s work, either.

I see people looking to create controversy for its own sake.
31 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derry Salewski
United States
Augusta
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
I'm only happy when it rains...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nice. I didn't think I could make scythe a better conversation piece!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Middleton
United States
Laramie
Wyoming
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
xesmi wrote:
I would wait for a professional reply by someone experienced in photo editing and digital art, instead of pointing the finger.

Jakub and Jamie will definitely answer those allegations.

Even if some part is true, artists always get inspired by others and borrow elements. Scythe and all the 1920+ art is very beautiful no matter what.



If you look at the examples in the thread linked there is much more than just borrowing examples going on here.

Directly copying composition for other works, mech designs from other works. Using a few reference photos is normal, repainting the photo is not. AP sued an artist a few years back over exactly that. Look up Shepard Fairey and his Obama Hope poster.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ath Papath
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That is why I mentioned official answers ...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
I like to
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What a shame.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carsten Neumann
Germany
Düsseldorf
NRW
flag msg tools
'Thematic?'
badge
"Ugh", Hail sighs. "Dispatch these simpletons quickly. I am already bored with them."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
n815e wrote:
Why should Jamie answer for anything to do with this?


100% true!

n815e wrote:
I don’t see a problem with the artist’s work, either.
I see people looking to create controversy for its own sake.


If the artist uses sources and pretends that the images are his imagination instead of naming/citing his sources - then this is at least morally questionable. I do not know about legal concerns.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sky Zero
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Official answers? What more official than you need? Those are blatant copy/paste traces. Me personally, don't care, love me some Scythe, but I hope it doesn't get Jamie in any trouble. Going forward, the artist should be a bit more upfront about his claims and simply provide credit where credit is due.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamey Stegmaier
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is the first that I've heard of any of this, and I will be looking into it.
112 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dusty Craine
United States
Linden
Michigan
flag msg tools
https://www.youtube.com/themillshow
badge
Me
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
horstderadler wrote:
If the artist uses sources and pretends that the images are his imagination instead of naming/citing his sources - then this is at least morally questionable. I do not know about legal concerns.

Can you show me an artist who cites sources? Are they out there? If this isn't a common practice, why would we expect Jakub to start the trend?

Like.. My daughter is 10 and she loves art. She draws cats and dogs. She finds pictures online. How do you source this? [www]dogpictures[dotcom]/13rcmc4ng3njg4khn/bigcat0012343.jpg

I'm just being practical here. And this is based on my non-existent knowledge of the art world. I've written college papers, I know I have to cite other people's work that I use for my own, but I've literally never seen a painting with source. But again, I'm not exactly into art so maybe it's very common. I acknowledge that I'm ignorant here.

This just seems like overreaction to a very common practice.
27 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Y P
United States
Mississippi
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mcclatchey wrote:
Game is still fun.

Do we have such tunnel vision and care so little about the world at large that this seems to be our collective answer to every game-related topic that isn't gameplay-related?
30 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dusty Craine
United States
Linden
Michigan
flag msg tools
https://www.youtube.com/themillshow
badge
Me
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MentatYP wrote:
mcclatchey wrote:
Game is still fun.

Do we have such tunnel vision and care so little about the world at large that this seems to be our collective answer to every game-related topic that isn't gameplay-related?
What is an appropriate response, in your opinion?
14 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Middleton
United States
Laramie
Wyoming
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BeardedOne wrote:
horstderadler wrote:
If the artist uses sources and pretends that the images are his imagination instead of naming/citing his sources - then this is at least morally questionable. I do not know about legal concerns.

Can you show me an artist who cites sources? Are they out there? If this isn't a common practice, why would we expect Jakub to start the trend?

Like.. My daughter is 10 and she loves art. She draws cats and dogs. She finds pictures online. How do you source this? [www]dogpictures[dotcom]/13rcmc4ng3njg4khn/bigcat0012343.jpg

I'm just being practical here. And this is based on my non-existent knowledge of the art world. I've written college papers, I know I have to cite other people's work that I use for my own, but I've literally never seen a painting with source. But again, I'm not exactly into art so maybe it's very common. I acknowledge that I'm ignorant here.

This just seems like overreaction to a very common practice.



Reference use is common, especially animal photos and buildings.

Taking another artists designs and composition is not. That's plagiarism.

The real issue here is the Jakob apparently knows this and fabricates tutorials to cover up plagiarism.

That's exactly how Shepard Fairey's Fair Use suit with the AP turned into criminal charges of obstruction and evidence tampering. If this is true it could get nasty pretty fast considering the commercial interests involved.
35 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Ricker
United States
Henderson
Nevada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
THANKS Jamey!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carsten Neumann
Germany
Düsseldorf
NRW
flag msg tools
'Thematic?'
badge
"Ugh", Hail sighs. "Dispatch these simpletons quickly. I am already bored with them."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BeardedOne wrote:
horstderadler wrote:
If the artist uses sources and pretends that the images are his imagination instead of naming/citing his sources - then this is at least morally questionable. I do not know about legal concerns.

Can you show me an artist who cites sources? Are they out there? If this isn't a common practice, why would we expect Jakub to start the trend?

Like.. My daughter is 10 and she loves art. She draws cats and dogs. She finds pictures online. How do you source this? [www]dogpictures[dotcom]/13rcmc4ng3njg4khn/bigcat0012343.jpg

I'm just being practical here. And this is based on my non-existent knowledge of the art world. I've written college papers, I know I have to cite other people's work that I use for my own, but I've literally never seen a painting with source. But again, I'm not exactly into art so maybe it's very common. I acknowledge that I'm ignorant here.

This just seems like overreaction to a very common practice.


I don't know who cites sources. But laying false tracks to hide the fact that the art was not his idea is just shake

Your daughter does not sell her pictures - maybe for a kiss from her dad. So, that's a different story But I get your point.

I am not working as "creative person", so I do not know how the process works and what you "should" cite/name. But where is the problem if he creates beautiful art (and it is damn beautiful!) from ordinary pictures and/or art from others? Maybe none. But why do you go all the way to pretend that it's yours?

The author in the original article describes that this was not well seen for a digital artist in the past. For me, the fact that Jamey will have a look at his is ... disquieting?

If a colleague has a good idea, I will not sell it as mine. Easy...

(btw: Thanks for the civilized discussion meeple )
14 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carsten Neumann
Germany
Düsseldorf
NRW
flag msg tools
'Thematic?'
badge
"Ugh", Hail sighs. "Dispatch these simpletons quickly. I am already bored with them."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Another - very egoistic - point: hopefully the art for Fenris is done, yet. If this post really gets a bigger problem and the art is not ready, it could delay things quite a bit...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dusty Craine
United States
Linden
Michigan
flag msg tools
https://www.youtube.com/themillshow
badge
Me
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really need to look into this Shepard Fairey's Fair Use suit.

I'm glad for the civil discussion too.

As for art in Scythe: The Rise of Fenris, that's already done. It's already in production to be available in August. In the Stonemaier May update, it was already in printing and assembling status.

edit: I wrote RoF will be shipped in August. It'll be available in August. So shipping will be sooner. My bad.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Castree
Japan
Osaka
Osaka
flag msg tools
ACGalaga.com
badge
What da heck?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's a pretty common technique for digital artist, especially conceptual artist. Also, I'd say it's more like making a collage than just tracing. There's still a lot of effort that goes into making art that way and using references is nothing new, there are just more shortcuts when doing it digitally.
17 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [52] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.