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Subject: counter limits for MS Pipeline? rss

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Bill Su
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Jim Krohn in https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/27781481#27781481 says that Colony Ships may be treated as unlimited. However, it does not say the same for MS Pipelines. On the other hand, unlimited Colonies without unlimted MS Pipelines seems a little odd.

Can we get an explicit ruling on which counters are limited and which are unlimited?
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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So, I play with unlimited colony ships, but everything else is limited by the counter mix. I *think* I have always played it that way, but don't hold me to that. I'm a big MS Pipeline fan and I like to build bridges with them across deep space in addition to just getting income from them.
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Guido Gloor
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Hm, seems I have too many in the mix then. It looks like the base game had 20 MS Pipeline, there were 4 more in Close Encounters, and finally another 4 in Replicators. Correct?
 
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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That sounds right. I know I wanted to add some because I like them in big games and I have been playing larger games.

Remember, though, this is a game that is meant to be modded. One of the reasons I have limited it to the counter mix when I play is utility. If you have extra counters or cubes that you want to use, as long as your opponent agrees, go ahead.
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Oliver Upshaw
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Jim Krohn wrote:
That sounds right. I know I wanted to add some because I like them in big games and I have been playing larger games.

Remember, though, this is a game that is meant to be modded. One of the reasons I have limited it to the counter mix when I play is utility. If you have extra counters or cubes that you want to use, as long as your opponent agrees, go ahead.


Jim, Haslo’s count is correct. I will note that the thread that billsu references has my reply that you had ruled in the past that players were free to use the extra Colony Ships and MS counters that were included in Close Encounters to boost the number available in the Base Game. Going by that a player would have the ability to build 20+20+4+4=48 MS Pipeline Counters(or stand ins for them) without having to get the other player’s permission to build more/consider them unlimited. If Haslo took that ruling to heart it would explain why he has “extra”.

Two player using the whole map I have hit the limit with only 20 counters. The same configuration and throwing in Terraforming 2 I could see hitting the limit of 28 counters if you did not want to allow the combining of the counters. My question at this point is how many MS Pipeline Counters over 48 does billsu need in his games?
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Guido Gloor
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Oliver Upshaw wrote:
If Haslo took that ruling to heart it would explain why he has “extra”.

Nah, it's because I often use wooden cubes instead of MS Pipeline counters, and I also have one extra copy each of all three boxes ... we did start using the MS Pipeline counters again and using the cubes to mark moved ships though, which is also useful (particularly now that the hexes are less congested, thanks to the Replicator's terrain hexes).

I'll keep things as they are then Thanks
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Bill Su
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Oliver Upshaw wrote:
Two player using the whole map I have hit the limit with only 20 counters. The same configuration and throwing in Terraforming 2 I could see hitting the limit of 28 counters if you did not want to allow the combining of the counters. My question at this point is how many MS Pipeline Counters over 48 does billsu need in his games?


To be honest, I have only played once (a three-player game that we didn't even complete), and didn't have any reason to worry about insufficient MS Pipelines. However, I was reading the Base Game "Double Trouble 2-Player Map" scenario which says to use two colors' Colony counters per player, but does not say to add in the MS Pipelines from the second color. In my inexperience, I expected that many additional Colonies to warrant additional MS Pipelines as well. That prompted my search of the Rules threads, which only left me more confused.
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Oliver Upshaw
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billsu wrote:
Oliver Upshaw wrote:
Two player using the whole map I have hit the limit with only 20 counters. The same configuration and throwing in Terraforming 2 I could see hitting the limit of 28 counters if you did not want to allow the combining of the counters. My question at this point is how many MS Pipeline Counters over 48 does billsu need in his games?


To be honest, I have only played once (a three-player game that we didn't even complete), and didn't have any reason to worry about insufficient MS Pipelines. However, I was reading the Base Game "Double Trouble 2-Player Map" scenario which says to use two colors' Colony counters per player, but does not say to add in the MS Pipelines from the second color. In my inexperience, I expected that many additional Colonies to warrant additional MS Pipelines as well. That prompted my search of the Rules threads, which only left me more confused.


Understood and thanks for the response.

That particular scenario I have never played. So you have your Home World and 17 Planets in your Home Space. But by the rules you only have 20 MS Pipeline counters to work with in the Base Game to connect all of them and any Deep Space Planets you colonize. You are more than likely going to run out of MS Pipeline counters before you can connect all of your colonies in that case. Throw in the 8 extra MS Pipeline counters in the two expansions and you might pull it off until you factor in going for Terraforming 2 at which point you fall short again. So the question at this point is how did Jim and the earlier playtesters play that scenario. Did they go by the rules and fail to connect all of their colonies due to a lack of counters to bridge the gaps between all of them? Or did they go ahead and use the MS Pipeline counters that matched the colors of the extra Colony Ships that they were using and that fact got dropped from the written rules?

I know that when I looked at that scenario in the rules back in 2010-11 I thought to myself that you would not be able to connect everything. I assumed that was by design and that you would be forced to make some choices as to which colonies would be connected. Of course that was before the extra set of counters was included in Close Encounters and Jim stating that you could combine the two sets of Colony/MS Pipeline counters.
 
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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It can be played either way - just agree with your opponent ahead of time how you want to play it.
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