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Subject: Difficulty of treasure conditions rss

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Jake Waltier
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I've played the game twice (once with 2 players and once with 4 players) and in both sessions, all players found it extremely hard to fulfill treasure requirements. We were able to acquire 3 heroes, but even with different options, we found drawing X cards or exhausting X cards almost never happened. I'm mostly sure we didn't get any rules wrong in that regard. We sold and bought reinforcements that would help us but could very rarely get what we needed into play. It meant the games ran very long since we weren't playing treasures. Do the designers or playtesters have any suggestions for what we may have been doing wrong on a strategic level? Maybe a different approach we should keep in mind?
 
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The Way
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I had a similar experience. Played 4 player game and it dragged forever. Spoiled then on the game and don’t want to try again.
 
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Francesco Simioni
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TwentySides wrote:
I've played the game twice (once with 2 players and once with 4 players) and in both sessions, all players found it extremely hard to fulfill treasure requirements. We were able to acquire 3 heroes, but even with different options, we found drawing X cards or exhausting X cards almost never happened. I'm mostly sure we didn't get any rules wrong in that regard. We sold and bought reinforcements that would help us but could very rarely get what we needed into play. It meant the games ran very long since we weren't playing treasures. Do the designers or playtesters have any suggestions for what we may have been doing wrong on a strategic level? Maybe a different approach we should keep in mind?


Co-designer here.
I'm sorry you've found troubles in looting treasures.

According to what you said, I'll use Umeka, Seeker of Her Script and Nene Sugihara as examples (please make me know if they are the 2 heroes you were actually referring to).



Let's start with Nene.
Her loot condition is considered medium-easy. The suggested card for a base strategy with her is Katsu:



As long as you have 2 Katsu in your hand and Nene as your active hero, you may loot a treasure these ways:

Situation 1: another player has at least 1 reinforcement on the field. > Deploy Katsu > activate Katsu's skill: exhaust 1 reinforcement on the field owned by another player > Nene's skill gives you +1 deployments > deploy the other Katsu > exhaust any other reinforcement on the field (even Katsu herself) > treasure looted!

Situation 2: no other players have at least 1 reinforcement on the field. This is harder since you must have another card to gain +1 deployments to be sure you can play 2 Katsu and exhaust your own reinforcements (Katsu may exhaust herself when deployed). Remember Katsu, if returned, gives you +1 deployments.

Other possibile situations.

Situation 3: 1 Katsu in your hand and any 2 other reinforcements (Sakurako, Ame-no-Uzume) that exhaust cards. Just return Katsu from your hand and play the 2 reinforcements, then exhaust by their skill.

Situation 4: 1 Hiroko Kuroyama (#22) in your hand and any other reinforcement that exhaust cards. As long as there is at least another reinforcement on the field, just return Hiroko and play the reinforcement that exhausts.

And a lot of other combinations.



Umeka has a slightly harder condition but it's extremely powerful.

Suggested cards:


If you have 2 Cho Min-So and 1 Koke in your hand you can loot because you have just to play Koke then the 2 Cho Min-So.

Other suggested cards are Shichi Urashima (#21, +1 draw, +1 mon, +1 deploy), Yuriko Fuma (#28) (skill: discard 1 to draw 1 OR return to draw 1).


If you still have troubles in looting, please try a game with Aiko (#3) or Orora (#10). Their straightforward loot conditions will automatically be fulfilled in around turn 3-4, just buy any samurai or ninja that gives you extra deployments and discard all the other cards at the beginning of your turn to increase the possibilities you draw what you need.

Hope this helps!

P.S. Please consider that in this game you are not supposed to draw 2-3 treasures per turn and not from the first turn.

Players usually start to loot treasured from turn 3-4 and hardly each turn, especially if they have no experience with the game.

In a very well played turn you may loot 2, maybe 3 treasures if you start a really amazing combo.

You can make points in many ways, purchasing the 10 MON reinforcements, keeping the starting reinforcements, AND looting treasures. In an average beginner game players end with 4-5 treasures looted.

Important: while the number of petals in the manual is balanced for a competitive game, you should set the number of petals according to the lenght you wish for your personal game.

If with 40 petals you find the game to be too long, feel free to reduce the number to 30, so considering an average of 6 petals are removed at the beginning of the game and an average of 2 is removed each turn until the Heroes cap in the domain, the game will be much shorter. In such a shorter game there will be less time to build interesting combos.

May I also ask how much long your games were?


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Mario Micidial
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TwentySides wrote:
I've played the game twice (once with 2 players and once with 4 players) and in both sessions, all players found it extremely hard to fulfill treasure requirements. We were able to acquire 3 heroes, but even with different options, we found drawing X cards or exhausting X cards almost never happened. I'm mostly sure we didn't get any rules wrong in that regard. We sold and bought reinforcements that would help us but could very rarely get what we needed into play. It meant the games ran very long since we weren't playing treasures. Do the designers or playtesters have any suggestions for what we may have been doing wrong on a strategic level? Maybe a different approach we should keep in mind?


Have you tried with the beginner heroes listed the manual?
 
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Jake Waltier
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To answer the last question first, in our first game we played with recommended heroes from the book. I think mine required me to draw 4 cards and my opponent's required him to play a certain number of samurai reinforcements. He was a little better able to get a treasure after several rounds, but I had a very hard time getting enough deploys and draws and maybe got 2 treasures. We also played wrong in that we could keep getting more heroes, so I ended up with at least 4, but they didn't help much.
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Jake Waltier
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I had Nene to start in my second game. Because the text says "2 cards exhausted", the other players insisted this mean I needed to have 2 cards exhausted to qualify, which I couldn't make happen. We played that wrong, but the wording on the card supported that interpretation. I'm willing to play it again to keep trying to make it work for us.

The first game with 2 players was at least 2 hours. I didn't keep exact track of it. The second game was abandoned by the game after the other 2 players decided after an hour and only one treasure being taken, to abandon the session and play something else.
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Francesco Simioni
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TwentySides wrote:
To answer the last question first, in our first game we played with recommended heroes from the book. I think mine required me to draw 4 cards and my opponent's required him to play a certain number of samurai reinforcements. He was a little better able to get a treasure after several rounds, but I had a very hard time getting enough deploys and draws and maybe got 2 treasures. We also played wrong in that we could keep getting more heroes, so I ended up with at least 4, but they didn't help much.


Aiko (3 samurai reinforcements played) is slightly easier then Umeka (4 cards drawn). For this reason she's worth 0 VP while Umeka 1 VP. For Umeka, I suggest the strategy of using Koke + Cho Min-So. There are many other ways like buying Shichi Urashima. After the first treasure Umeka usually becomes very easier because of the boost the treasure gives.

I suggest to pair Umeka with heroes (if they are available) that get benefits from a quick deck like Amaya of the Golden Serpent, Orora, Amba, Follower of the Dharma and Katsumi Tokugawa.

Also remember that you can have a maximum of 3 heroes. Buying heroes gives you VP and brings closer to the end of the game since new must be revealed and so the petals are removed.
 
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Francesco Simioni
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TwentySides wrote:
I had Nene to start in my second game. Because the text says "2 cards exhausted", the other players insisted this mean I needed to have 2 cards exhausted to qualify, which I couldn't make happen. We played that wrong, but the wording on the card supported that interpretation. I'm willing to play it again to keep trying to make it work for us.

The first game with 2 players was at least 2 hours. I didn't keep exact track of it. The second game was abandoned by the game after the other 2 players decided after an hour and only one treasure being taken, to abandon the session and play something else.


About Nene's condition, "exhausted" means exhausted by any mean and in any side of the field. As general rule, take card descriptions literally, nothing should be assumed.

Anyway, having two of your own cards exhausted isn't very hard: tsubaki koihime + 2 katsu can easily grant you that. Not that you need it tho. 2 Katsu (or any other exahusting reinforcement) are absolutely enough for this purpose, since Nene give you 1 extra deployments after the first exhaustion 8of another player's card).

2 hours are definitely much for an average game with experienced player, but I can imagine it for a game full of discussion of beginners. What isn't normal is that you looted almost no treasures. Please keep us updated so we can give you more informations and tips. Also you can try to download the Heroes strategy guide from our site axismundigames.com

 
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David Martinez
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Tirnanog Industries wrote:
TwentySides wrote:
I had Nene to start in my second game. Because the text says "2 cards exhausted", the other players insisted this mean I needed to have 2 cards exhausted to qualify, which I couldn't make happen. We played that wrong, but the wording on the card supported that interpretation. I'm willing to play it again to keep trying to make it work for us.

The first game with 2 players was at least 2 hours. I didn't keep exact track of it. The second game was abandoned by the game after the other 2 players decided after an hour and only one treasure being taken, to abandon the session and play something else.


About Nene's condition, "exhausted" means exhausted by any mean and in any side of the field. As general rule, take card descriptions literally, nothing should be assumed.

Anyway, having two of your own cards exhausted isn't very hard: tsubaki koihime + 2 katsu can easily grant you that. Not that you need it tho. 2 Katsu (or any other exahusting reinforcement) are absolutely enough for this purpose, since Nene give you 1 extra deployments after the first exhaustion 8of another player's card).

2 hours are definitely much for an average game with experienced player, but I can imagine it for a game full of discussion of beginners. What isn't normal is that you looted almost no treasures. Please keep us updated so we can give you more informations and tips. Also you can try to download the Heroes strategy guide from our site axismundigames.com


I’ve played five games so far, three 2-player and two 4-player games, and they have been just as lengthy with one game being called after three hours due to loss of interest.

The game isn’t being found to be very intuitive or “to flow well”. Treasures are looted very infrequently and Regalia almost never. I can say that cards must be returned or sold in order to keep your deck thin and focus should be kept on having only the cards that help your Active hero to loot. Trying to have too many “multi-purpose” cards will delay your VP gain to greatly.

Another cause for the lengthy games seem to be the constant rechecking of uses of each card and how they effect other ppl. This could be remedied with more games and knowledge of the cards when they’ve been committed to memory but with long sessions, little success on most turns, and low scoring games (only once did someone score more than 10), people aren’t inclined to play more than twice (if that).
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Francesco Simioni
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AxeTerio wrote:
I’ve played five games so far, three 2-player and two 4-player games, and they have been just as lengthy with one game being called after three hours due to loss of interest.

The game isn’t being found to be very intuitive or “to flow well”. Treasures are looted very infrequently and Regalia almost never. I can say that cards must be returned or sold in order to keep your deck thin and focus should be kept on having only the cards that help your Active hero to loot. Trying to have too many “multi-purpose” cards will delay your VP gain to greatly.

Another cause for the lengthy games seem to be the constant rechecking of uses of each card and how they effect other ppl. This could be remedied with more games and knowledge of the cards when they’ve been committed to memory but with long sessions, little success on most turns, and low scoring games (only once did someone score more than 10), people aren’t inclined to play more than twice (if that).


Daimyo's Fall is indeed a game with strong TCG influences that has indeed a learning curve. It is a game that is not for casual gamers and its weight is considered from us about 3.5/5.

The average scoring is between 5 and 20, we're sorry if some may find it low, but boosting the points won't change the balance. We chosen to keep numbers low in order to have more control on the balance.

Regalia treasures may even never be seen in a single game. Looting them is always hard and only great turns may lead to them.

As said, remember the petals number may always be set to an amount you like, and spending trades point to change heroes in the domain will always lead to remove petal tokens.

We're about to release a variants booklet where beginners or people who want a faster game can find the rules to make different but balanced starting decks.

Please keep us updated if you have more feedbacks!

P.S. Forgot to say: yes, cards must be sold. Hand management is crucial, you need an efficient deck, you can't keep all the cards you start with (you should get rid ASAP of the starting reinforcement of the class you're not gonna use, or even of all of them) or you purchase during the game.
 
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Benjamin
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First game, 2 players.

Took over 2 hours after explaining.

32 vs 39 points.

We made the mistake of buying too many cards that didn't necessarily add towards the loot condition. Then when we got treasures they rarely saw play but instead we tried to trade them all into regalia. We ended up with many regalia this way.

Now it's going be a pain to get the significant other to play it again.

Honestly, a bit of a strategy section in the rulebook would have been great to avoid it. That there is no game timer if you trade in treasures doesn't help and neither does the rulebook with errors.

That being said, I want to try again.
 
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