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Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Timing of Multiple Traps rss

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Michael Green
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Had a question regarding resolving timing of multiple Traps. I was playing against Murderworld from the X-Men Expansion and I drew:

Sulfuric Acid Water Slide (2 copies)
Trap!
Ambush: Play another card from the Villain Deck.
By End of Turn: Have no Villains in the Sewers.
Or Suffer: Each player gains a Wound.
VP: 2

and the next card from the Villain deck was:

Animatronic Killer Clowns (2 copies)
Trap!
By End of Turn: Recruit two Heroes.
Or Suffer: This Trap enters the city as a 3 Attack "Animatronic Killer Clown" Token Villain that captures a Human Shield.

If the Sewers were empty but I don't recruit two Heroes during my turn, then the timing of which Trap gets resolved first at the end of the turn is important, as the Killer Clown trap puts a Villain in the Sewers, which will cause a Wound if the Sulfuric Acid one resolves after.

I would guess that since timing is unclear the active player decides which order to resolve them in?
Anyone have a different view?
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David A
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Much like resolving multiple Mastermind Master Strikes, I'd say the active player determines the order in which they are resolved.
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Michael Green
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I suppose another interpretation is that the end of the turn is when you check for if the condition is met, and then 'or suffer' effects happen after the 'end of the turn' (but before the next turn).

That way it wouldn't matter what order you resolved them. The Sewers were clear at the 'End of the Turn' so even if the other trap fills them up after that you've already avoided the condition.
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Jason Walker
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The general ruling from the FAQ is:

Quote:
Q: What happens when two effects should happen at the same time?

A: If two card effects conflict with each other, the most recent card effect that came into play takes priority. For example, you are playing a game versus Mephisto, who states that "Whenever a player gains a wound, put it on top of that player’s deck," and then you play Deadpool: Random Acts of Unkindness, who states "You may gain a Wound to your hand. Then each player passes a card from their hand to the player on their left." Deadpool’s effect came into play most recently, so his ability takes priority and the Wound gained from Deadpool goes directly to your hand. Source: Devin


Since both are "By End of Turn" effects, I'd say you do the second one first, causing you to get a villain and then gain a wound.

This does seem to conflict with the multiple mastermind ruling, but that one was specified directly in the Secret Wars rules sheets. I would guess that we should treat that as an exception, but has the "active player chooses" ruling been given in other circumstances? The only mentions of something similar in the rulebook have to do more with resolving ties, rather than timing.
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Falco Timmerman
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I wouldn't really say these two traps conflict though, they don't point to the same effect. I'd say you check them at the same time and after checking both you resolve them both, like Michael suggested. Or have them trigger one after the other, with the first drawn one checking first and resolving, then the second one checks and resolves. Either of those seem valid to me as interpretations.
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Jason Walker
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EduartBoudewijn wrote:
I wouldn't really say these two traps conflict though, they don't point to the same effect.

But they do point to the same timing event, "end of turn", so they're definitely causing a conflict.
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Falco Timmerman
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But it's possible to have multiple effects happening at the end of turn. Both check as you move into the End Phase (to use some MtG phrasing) and trigger in that phase, by which point their effects no longer affect the triggering which happened before.
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Jason Walker
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Legendary doesn't use a stack for effects in the same way that Magic does. You must completely resolve an effect when it triggers, unless it's during another current effect.

Quote:
Q: Can a card triggered effect happen in the middle of resolving another effect?

A: Cards that use the framework "Whenever A would happen, you may do B instead" are the only effects that can occur in the middle of another card effect. Source: Devin


So back to the question at hand, both of these trigger at the same time, "end of turn." One effect must begin and completely resolve before starting the second. The earlier ruling says that the newer one takes precedence and would be resolved before triggering and resolving the first. Based on actual rulings, you cannot "check them at the same time."
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Ryin
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Where is the source for a newer card taking precedence over older cards?
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Kevin Salch
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I would say that these cards resolve in a state "after the end of the turn." Therefore they don't impact each other.

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Justin H

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I guess one thing that could be clearer is when is the trap resolved?

Legendary: X-Men Rules wrote:
The Legendary® X-Men set adds a completely new card type to Legendary®: Traps. Every Villain Group in the set contains at least one Trap.
• When a Trap is played from the Villain Deck, it gives you a challenge to complete this turn to avoid the Trap. If you complete the challenge, put the Trap in your Victory Pile and get its VP. A Trap is not a Villain and doesn’t enter the city.
• If you fail to complete the challenge, then at the end of the turn you must KO the trap and suffer the listed consequences! (Do this after you draw a new hand).


Since the traps says: By End of Turn does that mean that it's checked to be defeated at the end of the turn, or is that when you Suffer the consequences of it? If you fulfill the condition in the middle of your turn do you defeat it right then? We've always played that you defeat the trap at the end of your turn, unless it says otherwise. The rules can certainly be clearer on this.

Another fun trap question about "Psychic Subjegation" which says:

Psychic Subjugation
Trap!
By End of Turn:
Recruit the left-most and right-most Heroes in the HQ.
Or Suffer: Each of those Heroes you didn't recruit enters the city as a Villain with Attack equal to that Hero's cost. When you fight one, you gain it.
VP: 3

So, when this Trap shows up does it target specifically the Heroes in the Left and Right of the HQ at that time? If you use Apocalyptic Kitty Pryde's "Infiltrate HQ" to put one of those Heroes on the bottom of the HQ, would you still have to Recruit the Hero that shows up next? I usually err on the side of things being harder, so I would still say you have to recruit 2 Heroes, but it isn't very clear either.
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Ryin
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I don't know that the traps would affect the other, regardless of the order you resolve them in, since you check the results before the end of the turn, but any failure takes place at the end of turn, not before the end of turn.
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Tom
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Does it depend on how long the sewers must be empty?

The trap says "by the end of the turn," which includes the time from the point that you reveal that trap to the end of the turn, so you check the sewers when you reveal the trap, and see that the sewers are empty, and therefore the condition of the trap is satisfied and you KO that trap. That way, the effects of the second trap are independent of the first trap.

Similarly, if a card directs the player to patrol the sewers, and if empty, gain plus one recruit point, the player can take the extra recruit point right then, and not wait until every other action has been taken during the turn, before then using that extra recruit point.
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Michael Green
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wow, didn't realise this was going to be such a can of worms.

I obviously don't want to question Devin, but I'm struggling to understand some of the prior rulings mentioned above.

Quote:
Q: What happens when two effects should happen at the same time?

A: If two card effects conflict with each other, the most recent card effect that came into play takes priority. For example, you are playing a game versus Mephisto, who states that "Whenever a player gains a wound, put it on top of that player’s deck," and then you play Deadpool: Random Acts of Unkindness, who states "You may gain a Wound to your hand. Then each player passes a card from their hand to the player on their left." Deadpool’s effect came into play most recently, so his ability takes priority and the Wound gained from Deadpool goes directly to your hand. Source: Devin


That seems like an answer to a different question, about what happens when effects conflict, like Mephisto says a wound goes on your deck while Deadpool says it goes in your hand, rather than an answer regarding simultaneous timing of effects.

If two Villains with escape effects escape simultaneously, this doesn't help me answer which escape effect should be resolved first. The effects aren't in conflict so much as the timing is ambiguous.

I thought there was a general comment in the rulebook about the active player deciding on the order of things if there is some ambiguity, but I could be totally wrong on that, or over-generalising from a comment about something else.

Quote:
Q: Can a card triggered effect happen in the middle of resolving another effect?

A: Cards that use the framework "Whenever A would happen, you may do B instead" are the only effects that can occur in the middle of another card effect. Source: Devin


This one I really don't get as it seems to me like there are lots of instances besides this where I would pause in the middle of resolving an effect to resolve something else. Eg if a Twist were to cause something to escape and then do something else, I would resolve the escape effect before doing the something else. Or if a Twist played two cards from the Villain deck and the first one had an Ambush effect I would resolve the Ambush effect before completing the Twist and playing the second card from the Villain deck. Is that wrong?
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Michael Green
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Tango Papa Delta wrote:
Does it depend on how long the sewers must be empty?

The trap says "by the end of the turn," which includes the time from the point that you reveal that trap to the end of the turn, so you check the sewers when you reveal the trap, and see that the sewers are empty, and therefore the condition of the trap is satisfied and you KO that trap. That way, the effects of the second trap are independent of the first trap.

Similarly, if a card directs the player to patrol the sewers, and if empty, gain plus one recruit point, the player can take the extra recruit point right then, and not wait until every other action has been taken during the turn, before then using that extra recruit point.


Not how I thought Traps worked, I would have thought you had to keep the Sewers empty until the end of the turn, but now that you mention it I'm not sure I can point to anything in the text to say that this interpretation is wrong.
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Michael Green
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dontfeedthegreen wrote:

I thought there was a general comment in the rulebook about the active player deciding on the order of things if there is some ambiguity, but I could be totally wrong on that, or over-generalising from a comment about something else.


This is what I was thinking of, from Special Abilities on Cards on page 16:

Quote:
If a special ability calls for a choice, and it’s not obvious who should make the choice, then the player whose turn it is makes the
choice.


So doesn't quite cover this situation, but I suppose you could argue that where the timing of two effects is ambiguous then someone has to choose which to resolve first, so then that would be the active player.

I also noticed this which I didn't know:

Quote:
Some cards tell each player to do something. In those cases, the
player whose turn it is does it first. Then go in clockwise order.
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Ryin
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dontfeedthegreen wrote:
wow, didn't realise this was going to be such a can of worms.


Quote:
Q: Can a card triggered effect happen in the middle of resolving another effect?

A: Cards that use the framework "Whenever A would happen, you may do B instead" are the only effects that can occur in the middle of another card effect. Source: Devin


This one I really don't get as it seems to me like there are lots of instances besides this where I would pause in the middle of resolving an effect to resolve something else. Eg if a Twist were to cause something to escape and then do something else, I would resolve the escape effect before doing the something else. Or if a Twist played two cards from the Villain deck and the first one had an Ambush effect I would resolve the Ambush effect before completing the Twist and playing the second card from the Villain deck. Is that wrong?


I think that is correct. That's the way we play it anyway.
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David A
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I still go back to my answer because the situation is in the same vein as a Master Strike with multiple Masterminds. In those cases, the active player chooses the order since, technically, they'd all happen at the SME time.
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Falco Timmerman
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Upon reading Justin's contribution I think I might have been playing Traps wrong since X-men. Rereading the rules now I think it is meant to be interpreted this way:

The moment you complete a Trap's challenge it goes into your VP and it's completed. So if the sewers are clear at any point you gain the Trap and it won't trigger, even if later in the turn villains re-enter the sewers.

At the end of your turn, after you've drawn your new hand, all Traps that have not been completed trigger at the same time. At this point, I do agree with David that the active player can choose the order if multiple Traps were failed in the same turn, since they all trigger at the same time.
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Michael Green
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EduartBoudewijn wrote:
Upon reading Justin's contribution I think I might have been playing Traps wrong since X-men. Rereading the rules now I think it is meant to be interpreted this way:

The moment you complete a Trap's challenge it goes into your VP and it's completed. So if the sewers are clear at any point you gain the Trap and it won't trigger, even if later in the turn villains re-enter the sewers.

At the end of your turn, after you've drawn your new hand, all Traps that have not been completed trigger at the same time. At this point, I do agree with David that the active player can choose the order if multiple Traps were failed in the same turn, since they all trigger at the same time.


Yeah, I'm beginning to think you're right.
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Michael Green
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jhochges wrote:

Another fun trap question about "Psychic Subjegation" which says:

Psychic Subjugation
Trap!
By End of Turn:
Recruit the left-most and right-most Heroes in the HQ.
Or Suffer: Each of those Heroes you didn't recruit enters the city as a Villain with Attack equal to that Hero's cost. When you fight one, you gain it.
VP: 3

So, when this Trap shows up does it target specifically the Heroes in the Left and Right of the HQ at that time? If you use Apocalyptic Kitty Pryde's "Infiltrate HQ" to put one of those Heroes on the bottom of the HQ, would you still have to Recruit the Hero that shows up next? I usually err on the side of things being harder, so I would still say you have to recruit 2 Heroes, but it isn't very clear either.


I would say here that the Trap refers to the specific Heroes in the HQ at that time. So if they aren't recruited then they enter the city as Villains from wherever they are, which could be the bottom of the Villain deck with Kitty, or someone's hand/discard pile if 'gain a Hero' effects are in play (in which the card has been gained not recruited so you still suffer the consequences), or even the KO pile if escapes happen during the turn and the player chooses to KO those Heroes.
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This is why I miss the days when Devin would pop in and help answer these questions.
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Fernando Santos
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Ok...

What is the meaning of By End Of Turn?

I am missing something here or we must check the result of the trap (meaning if we beat it or not) only at the end of our turn?

And not sometimes during our turn?

I am not seeing how something that says By End of Turn could mean sometimes during your turn.
 
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Ryin
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Facsantos wrote:
Ok...

What is the meaning of By End Of Turn?

I am missing something here or we must check the result of the trap (meaning if we beat it or not) only at the end of our turn?

And not sometimes during our turn?

I am not seeing how something that says By End of Turn could mean sometimes during your turn.


After you're done playing cards and declare that you are finished with your turn, before you discard your remaining cards and draw a new hand.

You can defeat a trap in the middle of your turn, if I remember correctly.
 
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Justin H

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klakak wrote:
Facsantos wrote:
Ok...

What is the meaning of By End Of Turn?

I am missing something here or we must check the result of the trap (meaning if we beat it or not) only at the end of our turn?

And not sometimes during our turn?

I am not seeing how something that says By End of Turn could mean sometimes during your turn.


After you're done playing cards and declare that you are finished with your turn, before you discard your remaining cards and draw a new hand.

You can defeat a trap in the middle of your turn, if I remember correctly.


I never thought of that before when this thread showed up. I wish I could find an official statement. Where's Devin when you need him.
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