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Subject: Random item #075 and Triforce class rss

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Gutripper
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Random Item #075

Spoiler (click to reveal)
circlet of elements : during your turn consume any element to create any element

25 gold , head slot, Can be refreshed (ie during long rest)


I bought this for the triforce class as I think it will make a lot of sense , although as i read the card

Spoiler (click to reveal)
the newly created element can still not be used until next turn


The only other head item I am considering as competition for this (currently prosperity 3) is the [prosp 2 item]
Spoiler (click to reveal)
empowering talisman to refresh a consumed potion


What experience do others have with this item and the triforce class - is it a keeper?

Unfortunately my current party including a spellweaver and vermling thief, both will retire soon and thus there will be less elements around in general
 
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Ahmad Siddiqi
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I went with empowering talisman and got some great purchase with it, since it provided the flexibility to refresh whichever potion was more useful at the time: stamina (to get just the right cards back to make use of whatever elements were up at the time), power or mana. Empowering talisman + mana allows for more elements up than the circlet, but circlet is cheaper and can be refreshed. Interesting choice. Do you long rest much as the elementalist? I avoided it as much as I could, to avoid elements going inert, so on margin I would go with the talisman if I could afford it, for the increased flexibility. But circlet is a good choice too, especially if you have space for a moon earring (which you may not). Although
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the pendant of dark pacts
is superior to both. You can find that in a treasure chest in
Spoiler (click to reveal)
scenario 21
. It allows you to
Spoiler (click to reveal)
refresh two consumed items in exchange for shuffling a curse into your deck - a fairly trivial cost for the elementalist.
 
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Des T.
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In regard to your question, I'd prefer the higher flexibility of empowering talisman.

A mana potion can generate elements from nothing instead of simply converting them and you can always opt to use the talisman on a different trinket.

That being said, my choice for best in slot would actually be the goggles: Giving you advantage on an attack that hits multiple targets is the best way to consistently generate one or more elements, once you've decently seeded your modifier deck. You've got a 50-75% chance to generate an element on every attack with advantage (I don't remember the exact numbers, it's been a while since I did the math).

I'm pretty sure the core build I'd aim for with tri-force would be:

Items spoilers up to P7 or so
Spoiler (click to reveal)
goggles, sun and moon trinkets, two elemental wands and the armor that grants "consume any, use: +1 attack for this action"


Based on the tri-force my wife played: It's a beast in target-rich environments. Father squishy and rather poor in single targets (up to level 7ish), but boy can it dish out AoE. If it's not AoEing, it'll usually fall back in to a support-ish role to provide crowd control and healing. A very solid class that requires you to always plan a turn ahead: "What do I want to do next turn and what elements will I need for them?" But you should also be able to change your plans to exploit a burst of mana generated from an AoE.

Oh, and you'll learn to love and hate demons ate the same time.
 
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Dan Baker
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DeS_Tructive wrote:
That being said, my choice for best in slot would actually be the goggles: Giving you advantage on an attack that hits multiple targets is the best way to consistently generate one or more elements, once you've decently seeded your modifier deck. You've got a 50-75% chance to generate an element on every attack with advantage (I don't remember the exact numbers, it's been a while since I did the math).


That actually stops being effective pretty quickly, once you start adding perks other than the elements. If you start with the six element perks (I’m doing the math from a fresh deck every time, which isn’t entirely accurate, but it’s not likely to be that far off), you go from 50% to 64.5% (the 50% chance of drawing it with your first card, which will always be either better than or ambiguous with the second, plus the chances of a +0 or worse with the first card and an element on the second, which are 9/32*16/31). That’s one extra element every 7 attacks, and that’s the biggest gain (in terms of element generation) you ever get from advantage.

Removing -1s twice after that bumps the numbers to 57.1% (16/28) without advantage, 67.7% with (the chances of +0 or worse on the first and element on the second are now 5/28*16/27), or one extra element every 9-10 attacks.

If you then swap out your last -1 and +0s for +1 and +2s, each of those decreases the chances that you’ll get an element with advantage, because you’re removing cards that are worse than “+0 and element” and replacing them with cards which are ambiguous with it. After those three perks, advantage only gives you an extra element once in about 24 attacks; the only cards left that aren’t ambiguous with an element are the NULL and -2.

Goggles might be worth it at one extra element per 7 attacks, but you’ll probably want to sell them and find some different headgear once you’ve started taking perks beyond the element perks.
 
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Des T.
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I'll have to unpack the character and mathcraft it myself, later, but I'm not following your math.

Quote:
...you go from 50% to 64.5%... That’s one extra element every 7 attacks...


Why are you equating 64.5% with 1 to 7 odds?
 
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Dan Baker
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DeS_Tructive wrote:
I'll have to unpack the character and mathcraft it myself, later, but I'm not following your math.

Quote:
...you go from 50% to 64.5%... That’s one extra element every 7 attacks...


Why are you equating 64.5% with 1 to 7 odds?


One extra element per 7 attacks. Without advantage, you would expect to generate an element 3.5 times off of 7 attacks. With advantage, you do so about 4.5 times off of 7 attacks.
 
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Gutripper
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I see the argument wrt empowering talisman being better if i already have a mana potion. I haven’t long rested at all with him so far - but the option is at least there with the circlet - however i think i agree the talisman is probably better.

Goggles i don’t rate as i currently have all 16 extra mana generating cards in my AM deck - there will be too many ambiguous results that will be wasted.
 
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fre kol
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Also, the triforce can use almost any element. Swapping one (which makes the original element unusable for that round) may not be that good. I think the circlet, as described above, would be better for a class that focuses on use of a specific element.
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Des T.
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dbaker wrote:

One extra element per 7 attacks. Without advantage, you would expect to generate an element 3.5 times off of 7 attacks. With advantage, you do so about 4.5 times off of 7 attacks.


Ah, okay. I see what you mean.

Something still feels off with the numbers, though. Advantage should give more than a 14.5% increase. If I get around to it, I'll double check them, just in case.
 
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Matt Ziemer
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The other thing to remember is goggles don't just give a slight increase in chance for generating an element. Goggles also grant advantage on an entire attack action.

Yes, the idea with triforce is to generate and consume elements but in many of the cases, this will amount to adding 1 or 2 bonus damage to an atk. If a piece of headgear grants you one more use of mana pot for one more element for say 2 more dmg on an aoe atk that hits 3 enemies for a total of 6 dmg added to a game. How does that compare to goggles which are reusable and less consistent but are capable of adding a lot more damage to an atk or game?

I mean really, if goggles means that one single atk rolls +0 instead of Miss that pretty much makes up for any amount of extra damage that the one bonus element consumption could offer. Everything after that is gravy.

Of course there is fringe cases where the right element at the right time gets you the jump you need to get over those traps and makes the difference between a win and loss but those things are much more difficult to quantify. Also that is what I use my mana potion for, it's never worth it for just 1 more dmg so typically, the second use of the mana pot isn't necessary.
 
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Dan Baker
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meziemer wrote:
The other thing to remember is goggles don't just give a slight increase in chance for generating an element. Goggles also grant advantage on an entire attack action.


Which doesn’t do very much when almost every card is ambiguous with every other card. It means you dodge the NULL and -2, but that’s about it once you’re fully perked out.

Even with just the element perks, slightly over half of your advantage draws will be either two identical cards (9%) or ambiguous (42%), and that percentage grows as you remove cards that aren’t ambiguous with the elements and add more that are (with all perks, it’s 76% total).

Quote:
Yes, the idea with triforce is to generate and consume elements but in many of the cases, this will amount to adding 1 or 2 bonus damage to an atk. If a piece of headgear grants you one more use of mana pot for one more element for say 2 more dmg on an aoe atk that hits 3 enemies for a total of 6 dmg added to a game. How does that compare to goggles which are reusable and less consistent but are capable of adding a lot more damage to an atk or game?


For one, you have to long rest to get multiple uses of the Goggles, and that means your elements are gone by the time you’re done resting. Depending on your party and gear, you might be able to get around that with teammates or items producing elements for you to use after the rest; otherwise, you’re spending a relatively weak turn on setup after your rest to get the elements rolling again. That’s likely to offset whatever gain you get from the Goggles, unless you dodge a NULL every time you use them.

(Now that I think of it, that’s actually a really good use of the item the OP mentioned: use it during your long rest to “save” an element you created the turn before for the turn after - and if you’d rather have a different element instead, you can do that. And if you have the rest of Des T.’s suggested gear, which I completely agree with apart from the Goggles, you’d really, really like to be able to long rest.)

Besides that, there are small items to refresh that are much more powerful for you than mana potions, so that’s not really a fair comparison (at least, not once you hit P4).
 
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Des T.
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dbaker wrote:
..., you’d really, really like to be able to long rest...

Yeah, the wands were used almost exclusively to keep the mana engine running (By using them in the long rest).
 
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Gutripper
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dbaker wrote:


(Now that I think of it, that’s actually a really good use of the item the OP mentioned: use it during your long rest to “save” an element you created the turn before for the turn after - and if you’d rather have a different element instead, you can do that. And if you have the rest of Des T.’s suggested gear, which I completely agree with apart from the Goggles, you’d really, really like to be able to long rest.)

Besides that, there are small items to refresh that are much more powerful for you than mana potions, so that’s not really a fair comparison (at least, not once you hit P4).


When you long rest are you allowed to use an item just before it gets refreshed from the long rest? If so I agree that’s a good option
 
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Darren Nakamura
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While I agree with the consensus that the Circlet of Elements isn't great for the Elementalist for various reasons (it can use almost any element at any time, there are better things that go in the head slot), there is one benefit to it that can be useful, and that's to delay an element from going inert an extra turn.

Say something infuses Fire, and you've got two cards left in hand and a thing that consumes Fire in your discard you really want to use. Either you short rest now, waste a turn, get that card back, and use the Fire next round with it, or you play your turn as normal, use the Circlet to the consume that Fire just to infuse more Fire, then short rest and have it ready for next go.

Also -- and this might not be allowed -- but if you can use it during long rests, then it would allow the Elementalist to long rest without having to restart its element engine at the beginning of the next rest cycle.
 
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Gutripper
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Items can be used at any time following the restrictions on the card

Circlet of elements can be used during 'your turn' So I guess at any time during that turn i.e. very first thing

Under Long Rest it doesn't say exactly when items are refreshed - but I guess if one can use an item at 'any time' you can use it just before you refresh...?

Without a clarification I'd say it's OK to do it

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Jeff Sylvester
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frekol wrote:
Also, the triforce can use almost any element. Swapping one (which makes the original element unusable for that round) may not be that good. I think the circlet, as described above, would be better for a class that focuses on use of a specific element.


I think the talisman is better, but don't underestimate the power of being able to bump up an unused element that is waning to full strength so you can consume it next round.
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Jeff Sylvester
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Gutripper wrote:
Items can be used at any time following the restrictions on the card

Circlet of elements can be used during 'your turn' So I guess at any time during that turn i.e. very first thing

Under Long Rest it doesn't say exactly when items are refreshed - but I guess if one can use an item at 'any time' you can use it just before you refresh...?

Without a clarification I'd say it's OK to do it



Clarification here: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27654999#27654999

Cephalofair wrote:
Items are refreshed during your turn on a long rest. So, beginning of your turn, then the effects of the the long rest, then end of your turn. So you can use an item either before or after it would be refreshed.
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