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Argent: The Consortium» Forums » General

Subject: Removing Most Mana and Most Gold Voter rss

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Robert Durant
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Did a quick search and I don't think this has been talked about yet.

I recently got this game and have only had the chance to play it twice, so I want to know what other people think of removing the Most Mana and Most Gold voters.

Basically every other voter in the game encourages and rewards players for building an engine and doing interesting things each turn(building spells, playing supporters), as using supporters, vault cards, wisdom and intelligence does not cause you to lose the resource. But since gold and mana is expended when used, the Most Mana and Gold voters encourage players to not buy things or play spells(which is one of the most interesting parts of the game). On top of that it encourages players to hoard the actions that give the resources, preventing other players from gaining the resources to use on those interesting things.
Basically I feel as though they make for a less interesting game, and am considering removing them from the selection of voters that I randomly draw from, but I would like more experienced player's opinion on the subject.
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Gregory Auld
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I would be strongly against this. Those 2 voters are the ones that make the decision to buy vault cards or cast big spells interesting. If there is literally no point in saving gold or mana till the end of the game, then there's no reason not to blindly shoot for most treasures or most consumables. A large portion of the game's resources are now automatically worthless in the end game.

It also removes the intrigue from someone hoarding mama or gold. Are they saving up for some big buys/spells or are those voters they've seen? Without those 2 voters, it's obvious what they're doing.

More than all of that though, those are the 2 voters with the highest opportunity cost to pursue. Yes they prevent people from buying or playing some spells, but if they're playing well it should only be by just enough to win them. Taking either of those voters by a large margin means that you likely gave up a different voter they could have used those resources to go for because of it. From a decision standpoint, they pose the most interesting puzzle in whether to pursue them or how aggressively to pursue them.
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R. Eric Reuss
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I haven't considered removing them, but I have strongly considered house-ruling them to work like all the other voters - so spent Mana/Gold would be kept in a personal "used" supply rather than returned to the main supply. I've never done it only because it's kind of fiddly and would require additional components to avoid running out of gold/mana.

(IMO, the late-game tension it introduces isn't an interesting enough dynamic to offset the downside of disincentivizing engine use, nor is it one that's required to make the game work. I'd be unsurprised if the main reason those 2 voters work differently is simply the tracking difficulty of doing otherwise.)
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Matt Rossi
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darker wrote:
I haven't considered removing them, but I have strongly considered house-ruling them to work like all the other voters - so spent Mana/Gold would be kept in a personal "used" supply rather than returned to the main supply. I've never done it only because it's kind of fiddly and would require additional components to avoid running out of gold/mana.

(IMO, the late-game tension it introduces isn't an interesting enough dynamic to offset the downside of disincentivizing engine use, nor is it one that's required to make the game work. I'd be unsurprised if the main reason those 2 voters work differently is simply the tracking difficulty of doing otherwise.)


I think removing them is a mistake. Even if everyone is building a well-oiled engine, This increases the value of turn 5/6 placement on spaces that grant mana or gold. Changing these voters to include spent mana or removing them entirely accomplishes the same thing: completely devaluing gold and mana. Most Gold and Most Mana allow spell-less and vault-less strategies to exist because there are enough voters to allow specialization. The two voters "working differently" also increases the value of marks, since knowing these voters are on the table gives you a significant advantage going into the final turn. It also provides a benefit to tempo strategies that attempt to end turns quickly. The game isn't just about building a good engine, it's about building a good engine within the confines of winning the most voters.

I do agree that part of the reason for them working differently is probably a result of them being difficult to track otherwise, but I like them the way they are. Optimization of an engine is meaningless if you don't also win. You're supposed to optimize your strategy and engine to create the most value towards a specific aim (winning), not creating value for value's sake.
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Trey Chambers
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darker wrote:
I haven't considered removing them, but I have strongly considered house-ruling them to work like all the other voters - so spent Mana/Gold would be kept in a personal "used" supply rather than returned to the main supply. I've never done it only because it's kind of fiddly and would require additional components to avoid running out of gold/mana.

(IMO, the late-game tension it introduces isn't an interesting enough dynamic to offset the downside of disincentivizing engine use, nor is it one that's required to make the game work. I'd be unsurprised if the main reason those 2 voters work differently is simply the tracking difficulty of doing otherwise.)


Last night I played (yay 2nd edition mages!), and every time players started amassing mana or gold I kept wondering if they saw the corresponding voter. It turns out neither was in the game but at various points I was convinced that they were.

I definitely like the effect of these voters existing, but it would certainly be interesting to try it the way you suggested. I honestly never considered it, because of the concern you mention. Tracking such info would be a pain and fiddly.
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