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Adam Thornton
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----- NOTE:

I have since written a 17-page PDF that describes all the intricacies of this variant, including updates based on playing it for a while. I have posted the PDF to the D100 Dungeon Facebook group. I have also submitted it here for upload.

If you are interested in this variant, please ensure you get the PDF, as it contains all the information you'll need, and it changes some of the details in this original post.

----- ORIGINAL POST:

I love "D100 Dungeon" but I also REALLY love games that persist over time. I can't bring myself to throw out an old map when a character dies. Here are some ways I've been playing D100 with a persistent dungeon and a "store" that gradually grows. This is my first BGG post, so I apologize if it's sub-optimal.

----- DUNGEON:

The simplest part of this is to keep using the same map for every character. You start at the "dungeon entrance" at the beginning of every quest, and it often takes some time (and therefore some oil and random monster encounters) before you arrive at unexplored areas. To improve this experience, I do the following:

GRAPH PAPER: The dungeon will soon grow off the edge of the pre-printed maps that come with the game. Get graph paper and draw smaller rooms, to depict a bigger dungeon.

STAIRCASES: When a character either meets a quest winning condition or dies, place a "down staircase" in the room the character was in. By extending the dungeon in three dimensions, it's easier to get to unexplored areas. Never place a staircase if there is already one in an adjacent accessible room (that's just cluttered).

When you descend a staircase, use a new sheet of graph paper for the lower level. When exploring a lower level, and you draw a new room under a blank area that is above you, roll D6...a 1 or a 2 means there is an "up" staircase in your room, UNLESS the blank area above is COMPLETELY enclosed and without any down staircases already in it, in which case there is ALWAYS an "up" staircase (this will help reduce blank spots and create a more interesting 3D dungeon).

DEAD MONSTERS: Each time you kill a monster, draw a cross in that room. Subsequently, when you enter that room, roll a D10...if the result is LESS than the number of crosses OR 7 (whichever is lower), then you ERASE the "searched" indicator (meaning you can now roll on the "Find" table again in the future) AND you have an automatic encounter. This keeps the dungeon "fresh."

If you would roll on BOTH the "dead monster" check AND the time track's "wandering monster" value in the same turn, do not bother with the second roll, whichever it may be.

GEOGRAPHIC FEATURES: Geographic features that do not offer treasure will continue to affect you each time you go through the room. You must make the check each time. This doesn't apply to traps from the "Find" table. So you won't keep ripping your armor on the same rocky outcropping.

LOCKED DOORS: There are no more lockpicks. When you discover a locked door or a lever door, roll D10 and write that number on the door. Similarly, when you find a key in your travels, roll D10 and fill in the pip for that key...you can ONLY open locked doors if you have the corresponding key, and you can ONLY open lever doors if you pull the corresponding lever.

When you find a lever in your travels, roll D10 and write that number on the lever...if you pull that lever, the corresponding lever door opens (you can only pull a lever for a door that has been revealed, and if in the future you find more doors with that lever number, they are automatically opened). Doors opened with keys and levers remain open forever. This will keep parts of the dungeon hidden until more locations are found. Note that if you are unable to explore further in your level because all the doors are locked, the "secret door" rule will save you.

You can sell keys to the store, and buy keys, using the rules below. Dead characters also have a chance of their keys appearing in the store, also described below (each key-pip has the usual 50/50 chance). The "other sources" rule also applies to keys: if one or more keys end up on a shelf, add another key with a D10 number.

RESTOCK: During a quest you can backtrack to exit the dungeon any number of times, in order to stock up on required items and to buy/sell from the store. This compensates for the increased distance you eventually need to travel to explore further. You do not need to exit the dungeon in order to complete a quest, however...the quest is completed as soon as you've met your objective, as is the current method.

----- THE STORE:

When you start your first character, the store is empty. Get a sheet of paper and divide it into 10 empty areas (shelves). This is the store. Each shelf is waiting to receive a bunch of stuff.

When you finish a quest and sell your unwanted items:

1. Put them ALL into the first available empty shelf in the store (starting with #1). The money you receive for your item is the wholesale value of the item: the value of the item, minus the repair cost for each filled repair pip. This is "wholesale value = item value - (repair cost * filled pips)." The more damaged the item is, the less you can sell it for. Note that, for items which can't be damaged (potions etc.), the wholesale value = item value.

NOTE: You cannot sell "required" items!

2. For each item you sell, also calculate and display the retail price. This is 3x the wholesale value. There's a big markup!

3. In addition, there are some things the shopkeeper also received from other sources, and these are included in the same shelf: for each item of a certain type you add (weapon, armor, part, etc.) roll for another item of that type, and add it to the shelf. So if you sell three weapons and two armors, add one random weapon and one random armor to the shelf you added your stuff to. These random items arrive with damaged pips when applicable, according to the tables you rolled on. Their retail price is calculated as per step 2 above.

3. You can buy anything from any shelf in the store, including the random things you just added, for the retail value you calculated. You can buy from multiple shelves. Why bother with this "shelves" nonsense? Their purpose is explained in step 5.

4. You cannot buy things using the method in the standard rules (picking certain tables and buying things from them), EXCEPT for "Required Items." Buy those as you would normally, without paying 3x the cost...they're provided cheaply by a local Charity for Useful Adventurers.

5. If all 10 shelves are full after you have finished the above steps, roll d10 and delete ALL of the objects in that shelf (except from the shelf you just added to...if you roll that shelf number, roll again until you get a different shelf number). This keeps the store somewhat dynamic and might get rid of that stockpile of Giant Rat Ears. NOTE: The only purpose of the "shelf" division is so you don't have to roll on every single object in the store...it's the fastest way I could think of to clean things out.

If a character dies, roll D10 for each "non-required" item that the character had. A result of 1-5 means the item has been recovered from the dungeon. Add all those items to a new shelf, calculating their wholesale value as above, and also follow step 3 (adding more items of the same types).

When you start a new character, feel free to buy and sell from the store's inventory before you enter the dungeon, if you can afford to.

--------

If this approach appeals to you, feel free to ignore anything you don't like! And there's room for easy enhancements...lower levels get harder? Oil stashes near staircases? "Escaped" monsters that have a chance of pouncing on you the closer you are to the room you last saw them in? Reasons why you might want to close doors again? The ability to buy some things from the store to apply to your quests? Ways to get into and out of the dungeon depths faster?

I hope these ideas are useful to somebody!

-------- EDITED:

* Added retail/wholesale prices for the stores. Otherwise the effect of an item's damage was ambiguous.

* Added key duplication information for stores.

* Added a "restock" rule.

* Put a cap on random monster rolls in combat-heavy rooms.
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David Ramsey
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Very cool!
 
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John Sisson
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How many Slots are you using per shelf ?
 
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Adam Thornton
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Narcyss wrote:
How many Slots are you using per shelf ?


There is no limit to the number of slots in a shelf...just add all the items you like to it. At least that's what I've been doing.

The only purpose of the "shelves" is to make cleaning up the store easier. To my mind, there should be some turnover in stock...that way you're motivated to buy something before it disappears, and it also makes the stock more manageable...500 items would be a pain to deal with!

Assuming the store needs to turn over its stock periodically, the best way I could think of managing that was to have 10 shelves...each shelf stores all the items you put into it at the end of a quest (including the extra stuff you roll for at the same time). Then, when the store is full, a simple D10 roll determines what is removed (instead of rolling on every single item in the store, or doing a "First in First Out" approach which seemed too deterministic).

So shelves are just for housekeeping...they aren't a hard limit on stock per se.
 
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Quote:
DEAD MONSTERS: Each time you kill a monster, draw a cross in that room. Subsequently, when you enter that room, roll a D10...if the result is LESS than the number of crosses, then you ERASE the "searched" indicator (meaning you can now roll on the "Find" table again in the future) AND you have an automatic encounter. This keeps the dungeon "fresh."


This means that eventually some rooms are going to have monsters spawn in them 100% of the time; is that intended? I really like the idea of a persistent dungeon; if only it didn't take so much drawing!
 
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Adam Thornton
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Heh, I'm refining this as I actually play, and I hadn't thought of that. Maybe a reasonable cap for the "less than" roll is 7 (to match the existing wandering monster roll in the time track). I'll tweak that in the original post, and also say that if you're also rolling on the time track for an encounter, just do the first roll. Otherwise you might have two wandering monster encounters in the same turn.

Since I'm also playing that you can return to the dungeon exit during a quest to stock up on Required items, the main route into and out of the dungeon could become a gauntlet. But I imagine monsters in a dungeon WOULD hang around the most well-traveled places...

As for the drawing, I guess it might add to the amount of drawing you do. What I'm really finding is that managing the store takes quite a bit of time...but who said managing a store was easy?
 
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Adam Thornton
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Re: Persistent Dungeon Sprinting
It can take a long time to get from place to place in a growing, persistent dungeon. If the travel is getting you down and wasting your oil...SPRINT!

SPRINTING:

You can quickly travel through areas of the dungeon that you are already familiar with, but the longer that you run the more chance you'll get a surprise...

NOTE: When you decide to use it, "Sprint" replaces the "EXITS" turn action. Therefore you can only sprint once per turn.

1. Count the number of rooms you want to enter during your sprint, up to 10. They must already be revealed, they must all be connected and accessible, they must not go up or down stairs, and they must not contain geographic features that would otherwise halt you or require a check (like traps).

2. Roll d10. If the number is higher than the number of rooms that you chose, then move directly to the final room in your sprint and continue with your turn.

3. If the number is equal to or lower than the number of rooms that you chose, then you were surprised by a monster during your sprint. Stop in the room number that you rolled (your sprint is finished), and have an encounter. The monster gains the attribute "Surprise" (if it doesn't already have it). After the encounter, continue with your turn.

For example, when it is time to do your "EXITS" turn action, you might want to run into six already-revealed, connected, non-trapped rooms on the same level. Roll D10. If you roll 7-10, your sprint was successful: go directly to the sixth room and continue with your turn. Otherwise, you were interrupted during your sprint: go to the room number that you rolled (could be the first room you ran into, could be the last room, could be any in between), and have an encounter. The monster gets to hit you first because it has automatically gets the "Surprise" attribute ("You've been clotheslined by a giant rat!"). Then, continue with your turn.
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Sounds like a good addition!
Might want to explicitly state that you can only Sprint once per Turn? At least that's what I'm assuming the intention is - otherwise you could Sprint 1 space at a time for the least amount of risk repeatedly, which doesn't seem fair.

Also you can just grant any Monster encountered while sprinting, Surprise. That gives them first strike. (Unless you intended for Monsters with surprise to get two free attempts to attack?) Do you stay in the room you were interrupted in, if a random monster happens, or do you finish your sprint after fighting?
 
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Adam Thornton
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Fire_Forever wrote:
Sounds like a good addition!
Might want to explicitly state that you can only Sprint once per Turn? At least that's what I'm assuming the intention is - otherwise you could Sprint 1 space at a time for the least amount of risk repeatedly, which doesn't seem fair.


Thanks Fire_Forever! I edited the post to clarify that it's only once per turn...it replaces the "EXITS" turn action.

Fire_Forever wrote:
Also you can just grant any Monster encountered while sprinting, Surprise. That gives them first strike. (Unless you intended for Monsters with surprise to get two free attempts to attack?) Do you stay in the room you were interrupted in, if a random monster happens, or do you finish your sprint after fighting?


I'd mentioned the "Surprise" attribute in step 3, but glossed over it in the example...I've clarified that too. And I've also added a note that your sprint is finished when you're interrupted. Have to try again next turn...if you dare.

Thank you for helping to refine these ideas!
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Adam Thornton
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Re: Persistent Dungeon Update
I have since written a 17-page PDF that describes all the intricacies of this variant, including updates based on playing it for a while. I have posted the PDF to the D100 Dungeon Facebook group. I have also submitted it here for upload.

If you are interested in this variant, please ensure you get the PDF, as it contains all the information you'll need, and it changes some of the details in this original post.
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Kristopher
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I'm working my way through my (second) Persistent Dungeon using your rules. (The first one, my first dungeon right out of finishing the training, was the Kingmaker Quest which I couldn't fail, and I rolled a GOLDEN DRAGON - Natural 100 - in the second room! So there's another dungeon in this world with a Dragon in it, waiting to be killed...)

The Store: How do you get rid of spell in your spell book, if you can't sell them to The Store?
 
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Adam Thornton
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Ahhh, I'm glad you're enjoying this variant! I hope it still works well with the latest base game revisions.

As for spell books, I'd assumed that spell books were permanent for a character...that they aren't just books but also an essential part of the character itself. So I figured you would need to keep the same spell book (and its spells) until your character died.

But I rarely tried to play spellcasters so my spell book experience was limited. Does it cause a problem if you can't get rid of old spells? For example, you can't ever get the more powerful spells?
 
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adamxt wrote:
Ahhh, I'm glad you're enjoying this variant! I hope it still works well with the latest base game revisions.

As for spell books, I'd assumed that spell books were permanent for a character...that they aren't just books but also an essential part of the character itself. So I figured you would need to keep the same spell book (and its spells) until your character died.

But I rarely tried to play spellcasters so my spell book experience was limited. Does it cause a problem if you can't get rid of old spells? For example, you can't ever get the more powerful spells?


Well, according to the rules, you can sell individual spells for 800gp a piece (which is a BIG help in repairing armour, and purchasing stuff when you aren't a caster and won't be in a long while.) You just aren't allowed to move spells UP the list in your book. So if you, say, have spell slots 1-4 filled, and want to sell spell number 2, you can't move 3 & 4 up to make them easier to cast if you want to keep them. The next spell you find would go back into Slot No 2 again.

But your store rules forbid the selling of spell books. So, forgive me if I varied your rules a bit: I just played that I can sell the Individual spells to some Wizard somewhere, but don't get access to them anymore via The Store. So I can still get the 800gp per spell (which is a BIG Help with that 3x markup!)
 
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Adam Thornton
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Lhowser wrote:
So, forgive me if I varied your rules a bit: I just played that I can sell the Individual spells to some Wizard somewhere, but don't get access to them anymore via The Store. So I can still get the 800gp per spell (which is a BIG Help with that 3x markup!)

Brilliant! I think that's a good way of reconciling the base game with the variant.
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I'm also having a problem with the Up/Down stairs and the 24 Square Exclusion zone. If I am reading it correctly, I am only ever putting a DOWN staircase in a room in which I finish my quest, or a room in which I died, and it needs to be outside of the 24 square exclusion zone of another staircase.

However, I am always checking for an UP Staircase with a d10 roll (on a 1 or 2), anytime I am outside of the 24 square exclusion zone. So I have an immensely greater chance (1 out of 5) of placing an UP Staircase than I do a DOWN staircase.

Would this not lead to a Perpetual Dungeon with an Massive First and Second Level, with very little chance of going DOWN to the Third or lower?

Edit: Ok, I think I know where I'm going wrong. I'm confusing UP and DOWN staircases, without realizing there is a difference. I cannot place a DOWN Staircase within the 24 square exclusion zone OF ANOTHER DOWN STAIRCASE. However, if there is an UP staircase within 24, it's ok.
 
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Adam Thornton
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Lhowser wrote:
Edit: Ok, I think I know where I'm going wrong. I'm confusing UP and DOWN staircases, without realizing there is a difference. I cannot place a DOWN Staircase within the 24 square exclusion zone OF ANOTHER DOWN STAIRCASE. However, if there is an UP staircase within 24, it's ok.

Yes, correct, the UP staircases and DOWN staircases have their own "exclusion zones" that do not mingle. This should lead to a manageable distribution of stairways.

I'd love to see your growing map if you're willing to share it!
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Not very big at the moment. Let me scan it for you....



I only JUST got to the third level now, because I'm only at Training Quest 3. Took me FOREVER with trying to get 3 Looted Weapons thanks to your -10 on top of the -30 for the quest! I must have killed four hundred Giant Rats. I felt like I was playing some old PC RPG with the beginning quests of killing rats. But at least it almost filled up my Combat page so I I"m well on my way to getting more Rep and Fate points.
 
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Not sure I like your "Parts Pudding" idea. Well, the idea is fine. It just seems like an enormous amount of parts to go into just 1 pudding for only 1 HP, to save yourself 10gp. I find myself, as I'm sure most do, needing to heal when coming back from a dungeon, so I'm eating the Pudding right away. So I'm never holding over any extra puddings on the shelf for later. So I'm healing 25 HPs before I ever get a break of just 10gp.

I don't know. Just seems like.... a lot. Especially when you start getting upwards (downwards) in levels, you'll theoretically be getting harder monsters with LESS Parts coming in. As well as getting harder quests, you will more than likely be having more gold to spend. So it seems like diminishing returns.

I mean, I like having some value to the Parts outside of just gaining gold for them, but it doesn't seem enough. Maybe 250gp? Or maybe they heal MORE than just 1 HP? /shrug
 
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Adam Thornton
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Ahhh, thanks for sharing your dungeon map! TBH, 80% of the appeal of D100 Dungeon for me is the mapping...I love to see a consistent world come together from random sources thanks to a set of simple rules.

Lhowser wrote:
Not sure I like your "Parts Pudding" idea.

I definitely see your point. I should have playtested it more...the gp value was somewhat arbitrary. In my enthusiasm to get the MAPPING stuff out there I didn't pay enough attention to the BALANCE.

You're suggesting enough great things to inspire me to update the document. I'm going to suggest 250gp as the price. In addition, do you find the -10 level modifier to be too annoying? I figured that folks would want to descend pretty quickly in order to get to the meatier quests (and that can be done by completing the easier ones to create stairways, and also by dying). But if that turns into an endless "too many giant rats and nothing powerful enough to kill me" slog on Quest 3 then something needs to change...
 
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adamxt wrote:

I definitely see your point. I should have playtested it more...the gp value was somewhat arbitrary. In my enthusiasm to get the MAPPING stuff out there I didn't pay enough attention to the BALANCE.

You're suggesting enough great things to inspire me to update the document. I'm going to suggest 250gp as the price.

Yeah, that sounds like a better idea. I, too, was going with that for my own dungeon.

Quote:

In addition, do you find the -10 level modifier to be too annoying? I figured that folks would want to descend pretty quickly in order to get to the meatier quests (and that can be done by completing the easier ones to create stairways, and also by dying). But if that turns into an endless "too many giant rats and nothing powerful enough to kill me" slog on Quest 3 then something needs to change...


Well, I only just now finished my training. I think once you get through the training quests, the level modifiers will probably be fine. Especially if you start encountering quest with + to the modifier! It's just trying to get through the training with having to LOOT Weapons/Armour that's deadly boring.

Don't get me wrong - it helps to pad out your combat stats a bit - I finished an entire Combat Sheet with just training, so was able to get another REP, another FATE point, up my HP and other stats, etc. But it was mostly Giant Rats. (25(35), 0, -2, 3/2/2, P2, Disease/Pack - see? I have their stats memorized now....)

And since I have an extra REP, I had three quests from which I could choose as the next one, so I could do away with the super high rolled ones and go for a lower quest.

I started the Head of the Beast (Loot 1 HEAD part) so the -10 is actually helpful due to having to find beasts instead of sentient Monsters. And I was able to decide to go back UP to the first level, instead of going deeper. But again, I'm killing Giant Rats out the whazoo. (I've already got an 81 (adjusted) STR to hit, with +4 DMG on top of the Exploding Mighty Blow ability, so I'm mowing through them pretty easily.)
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Feel free to pillage ideas or monsters off my Expanded Encounter Table if you'd like more variety in your early game. I found the same thing; it got really boring facing off against Giant Rats all the time. I do like the idea of a persistent dungeon but I feel like I've explored what d100 has to offer and it doesn't really entice me anymore.

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