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Subject: Monster-trap interaction question (w/ picture!) rss

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Josh Hagood
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Please help me confirm I've been doing this correctly for our 15 hour campaign, or correct me if I'm wrong. When a monster is trying to attack someone who has traps and creatures adjacent, they still treat those traps as impassable/obstacles? Since they still "see" a path, it's just currently occupied by a moveable figure, they will just wait? In contrast, if it was traps all around, they would finally just move into a trap to get in range?

See this example from my solo Tabletop Sim game I just ran into:

(I should note this an extremely minor spoiler about a scenario rule. Nothing about any particular scenario is spoiled, just a special rule you may occasionally see.)

Spoiler (click to reveal)

Corpses are on my side in this battle, vs the guards.



In this case, the corpse has move 2, and this guard is highest initiative between guard or archer. Does he try to move to the space his fellow corpse is in and fail, so he stands still? Or does he set the trap off to get an attack? Basically, I'm not sure if a figure counts as blocking their path, to the point where they will walk into traps if all paths are blocked.




(BTW, to nip this potential complaint in the bud: I just use TTS for my solo games to save set up/tear down since I don't have a $800+ gaming table with inlay and topper. I own a physical copy and play a campaign with a group as well.)
 
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Phil Greenfly
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In this case, the Brute or the Cragheart will be the focus, depending on which one has lower initiative. Focus is not determined by proximity, but by number of hexes necessary to move in order to attack the target. In this case, since there are still available paths towards its enemies, they treat the traps as obstacles. They cannot reach the guard or the archer because there are no available hexes to attack either of them. However, there are available hexes to attack the Brute of Craheart, so one of them will become their focus and they will move towards them.
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Josh Hagood
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PhilGreenfly wrote:
In this case, the Brute or the Cragheart will be the focus, depending on which one has lower initiative. Focus is not determined by proximity, but by number of hexes necessary to move in order to attack the target. In this case, since there are still available paths towards its enemies, they treat the traps as obstacles. They cannot reach the guard or the archer because there are no available hexes to attack either of them. However, there are available hexes to attack the Brute of Craheart, so one of them will become their focus and they will move towards them.


In this particular case, the corpses are my allies so they won't attack the players. But, it's still good to know it's not proximity, it's shortest path to attack.

So, with no available paths to any target, he'd just sit there?

(I think the advanced movement rule quiz here on BGG has tainted my mind and I'm always trying to overcomplicate movement now...)
 
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Phil Greenfly
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Vazzaroth wrote:
PhilGreenfly wrote:
In this case, the Brute or the Cragheart will be the focus, depending on which one has lower initiative. Focus is not determined by proximity, but by number of hexes necessary to move in order to attack the target. In this case, since there are still available paths towards its enemies, they treat the traps as obstacles. They cannot reach the guard or the archer because there are no available hexes to attack either of them. However, there are available hexes to attack the Brute of Craheart, so one of them will become their focus and they will move towards them.


In this particular case, the corpses are my allies so they won't attack the players. But, it's still good to know it's not proximity, it's shortest path to attack.

So, with no available paths to any target, he'd just sit there?

(I think the advanced movement rule quiz here on BGG has tainted my mind and I'm always trying to overcomplicate movement now...)


Oh, did not know they were your allies. That actually changes the situation.

In that case, since there is no available path to a hex it can attack its focus except for path that has trap(s) in the way, the living corpse will move to the trap marked with the blue arrow and attack the guard, if it survives the damage from the trap or is not stunned by it of course.
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Alejandro
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It needs a valid hex to stand on. In this case there is no valid hex so it'll go into a trap either to attack the archer or guard whichever has lower initiative. If the monster's allies where partially blocking the way but at the end there was a valid hex to attack from, in a way which might require more movement than it needs, it would stay put and avoid the trap, cause there is a valid hex where it could end up with infinite movement.

But in this case with infinite movement it cannot reach any target, so it'll start considering the path with the least amount of negative hexes, which is through one trap.

Extra note: if there are still guards alive in the first room it'll head there instead.
 
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Dan Baker
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Assuming there are no off-screen targets, the only hexes from which the Corpses can attack are the traps. So they will shamble straight into said traps (unless the first one dies to the trap or the Guard’s retaliation, if he has one; then the second will move to the opening created by the first Corpse’s re-death).

The Corpse already adjacent to the Guard doesn’t block the others’ ability to find a path, but it does block that particular hex from being considered as a destination. It isn’t a viable attack hex for any other Corpse because it is occupied (and therefore they could not end their movement there). If the hex above it, at the corner of the T, were not a wall, the other Corpses would attempt to move through that Corpse rather than stepping in the traps. But they cannot do so with the map as it is, so they cannot find a path of any length that would allow them to attack without setting off a trap.

Note that, as Alejandro mentioned, if there are other enemies (no matter how far away) that they can eventually reach without going through a trap, they will head off in that direction and avoid the traps.
 
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Goat of Death

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I’m pretty sure the last 3 responses that the corpse would move into the traps are unfortunately wrong. The corpse would treat the traps as obstacles and move to the right and down to at least get closer movement wise.

There is a valid path to the target around the traps so it would get as close as it can and wait for that path to clear.

If you look in the rules there is a similar situation with an archer as the second example for monster movement. The example states the archer would not move even though it could attack this turn if it moved into a trap. In the example it stayed put because it only had one move blocked by an ally. However, in your example the living corpse has one hex it can use to get closer so it would occupy that.

So the corpse would not go into the trap since another possible path is available, even if it’s not available this turn. The entire hallway would need to be blocked with traps for the corpse to move into one.
 
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michael ray
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goatofdeath wrote:
I’m pretty sure the last 3 responses that the corpse would move into the traps are unfortunately wrong. The corpse would treat the traps as obstacles and move to the right and down to at least get closer movement wise.

There is a valid path to the target around the traps so it would get as close as it can and wait for that path to clear.

If you look in the rules there is a similar situation with an archer as the second example for monster movement. The example states the archer would not move even though it could attack this turn if it moved into a trap. In the example it stayed put because it only had one move blocked by an ally. However, in your example the living corpse has one hex it can use to get closer so it would occupy that.

So the corpse would not go into the trap since another possible path is available, even if it’s not available this turn. The entire hallway would need to be blocked with traps for the corpse to move into one.


The entire hallway is blocked. The corpse will walk on the traps.

There are 5 potential attack hexes available to the corpse.
They are:
A. Hex the archer is standing on
B. Hex behind the guard
C. Trap
D. Trap
E. Hex with living corpse

A and C are occupied, so they aren't valid.
B can't be reached, because the corpse has neither jump or fly, to get past the enemy figures.

That leaves, C or D, which have traps. Because there are no other valid choices, the corpse will walk onto a trap to attack the guard.

On the plus side, because they're ambiguous, it's your choice for which trap to have the corpse walk onto!

EDIT: By the guard having 'highest' initiative, I'm taking that to mean 'going before the archer' not a higher numeric value, otherwise the corpse would target the archer (but with the same result, except only 1 trap choice to walk onto, not two)

EDIT EDIT: To respond directly to the poster that I replied to, there is a difference between a friendly unit ALONG the path, vs a friendly unit ON an 'attack' hex. If there wasn't a corpse directly adjacent to the guard, then the corpse who's turn it was would move towards that spot, ignoring traps, using only 1 move, due to the 3rd corpse being in the way along the path.

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Goat of Death

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squegeeboo wrote:
To respond directly to the poster that I replied to, there is a difference between a friendly unit ALONG the path, vs a friendly unit ON an 'attack' hex. If there wasn't a corpse directly adjacent to the guard, then the corpse who's turn it was would move towards that spot, ignoring traps, using only 1 move, due to the 3rd corpse being in the way along the path.

Is there a difference? Example 2 with traps from the rule book seems very much the same to this situation. In example 2 there are only two valid attack hexes for the archer on that turn, one is occupied by an ally, the other is a trap. In the example the archer does not move onto the trap even though the only other valid attack hex choice is occupied by a friendly. Which seems very much the same as this situation. Hence I don’t think there is a difference between along the path to an attack hex vs being directly on it with regards to treating traps as obstacles. Treating traps as obstacles the living corpse would move right and down, moving towards the attack hex it would use if a friendly were eventually not there. Which again seems the same as the rule book example 2 for focus and traps.
 
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Jay Johnson
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goatofdeath wrote:
Is there a difference? Example 2 with traps from the rule book seems very much the same to this situation. In example 2 there are only two valid attack hexes for the archer on that turn, one is occupied by an ally, the other is a trap. In the example the archer does not move onto the trap even though the only other valid attack hex choice is occupied by a friendly. Which seems very much the same as this situation. Hence I don’t think there is a difference between along the path to an attack hex vs being directly on it with regards to treating traps as obstacles. Treating traps as obstacles the living corpse would move right and down, moving towards the attack hex it would use if a friendly were eventually not there. Which again seems the same as the rule book example 2 for focus and traps.

The difference isn't in where the monster can move "this turn", but where the monster could possibly move in the hypothetical situation where it had infinite movement.

In the rulebook example that you refer to, if the monster had infinite movement, it could move to a hex next to the Brute and make an attack without having to cross any traps. Thus, the monster will not step onto a trap no matter what its actual movement amount is.

However, in the example in this thread, even if the Living Corpse had infinite movement, it would not be able to reach a hex from which to attack an enemy unless it steps onto a trap. Thus it will step onto the minimum amount of traps (1) to get into attack position.
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michael ray
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goatofdeath wrote:
squegeeboo wrote:
To respond directly to the poster that I replied to, there is a difference between a friendly unit ALONG the path, vs a friendly unit ON an 'attack' hex. If there wasn't a corpse directly adjacent to the guard, then the corpse who's turn it was would move towards that spot, ignoring traps, using only 1 move, due to the 3rd corpse being in the way along the path.

Is there a difference? Example 2 with traps from the rule book seems very much the same to this situation. In example 2 there are only two valid attack hexes for the archer on that turn, one is occupied by an ally, the other is a trap. In the example the archer does not move onto the trap even though the only other valid attack hex choice is occupied by a friendly. Which seems very much the same as this situation. Hence I don’t think there is a difference between along the path to an attack hex vs being directly on it with regards to treating traps as obstacles. Treating traps as obstacles the living corpse would move right and down, moving towards the attack hex it would use if a friendly were eventually not there. Which again seems the same as the rule book example 2 for focus and traps.


Monsters only plan for this turn while also assuming infinite movement, so it doesn't matter if that other living corpse will eventually not be there, it's there now, so it's not a valid attack hex.

Jay explained it really well in the post above this.
 
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Goat of Death

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I see how the infinite movement standard would result in the outcome of the monster stepping into the trap. Though it does seem logically incongruous with the example in the rules. In both this case and the case of example 2, the monster's choice in the context of it's current turn is simple: step into the trap and gain the opportunity to attack, or don't step into the trap and lose that attack opportunity. Yet following the infinite movement standard one monster would jump into the trap to attack yet another would not, which is what seems odd and inconsistent.

The rules state: "It doesn’t matter if the monster can’t get within range to attack with its current movement, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range."

Our group definitely took "eventually" to mean temporally rather than spatially especially when combined with example 2. Meaning a monster would prefer to miss the opportunity to attack and wait for an attack hex to open up rather than jumping into a trap. However, if that's not the case, so be it.

What's interesting is that the infinite movement standard means most of the time ranged attackers will have a much larger degree of self preservation than melee attackers. Melee attackers are much more likely to have their attack hexes blocked by other friendlies. This definitely makes some of the add trap abilities like the tinkerer's potentially more useful as monsters will start barreling through traps when a logjam occurs. I can't decide if I think this will make the game easier or harder. More monsters would be willing to throw themselves through traps to enter melee. Meaning players will potentially be subject to more damage sometimes. Yet trap damage is often not insignificant itself and ignores shields, so those monsters will also become easier to kill.
 
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Alejandro
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goatofdeath wrote:
I see how the infinite movement standard would result in the outcome of the monster stepping into the trap. Though it does seem logically incongruous with the example in the rules. In both this case and the case of example 2, the monster's choice in the context of it's current turn is simple: step into the trap and gain the opportunity to attack, or don't step into the trap and lose that attack opportunity. Yet following the infinite movement standard one monster would jump into the trap to attack yet another would not, which is what seems odd and inconsistent.

The rules state: "It doesn’t matter if the monster can’t get within range to attack with its current movement, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range."

Our group definitely took "eventually" to mean temporally rather than spatially especially when combined with example 2. Meaning a monster would prefer to miss the opportunity to attack and wait for an attack hex to open up rather than jumping into a trap. However, if that's not the case, so be it.

What's interesting is that the infinite movement standard means most of the time ranged attackers will have a much larger degree of self preservation than melee attackers. Melee attackers are much more likely to have their attack hexes blocked by other friendlies. This definitely makes some of the add trap abilities like the tinkerer's potentially more useful as monsters will start barreling through traps when a logjam occurs. I can't decide if I think this will make the game easier or harder. More monsters would be willing to throw themselves through traps to enter melee. Meaning players will potentially be subject to more damage sometimes. Yet trap damage is often not insignificant itself and ignores shields, so those monsters will also become easier to kill.


We've played over 40 scenarios so far and a monster has stepped into a trap cause of friendly allies a couple of times at most. It doesn't really come up that often, most of the time they have a way around or they have flying.
As for trap abilities they are pretty underwhelming, most of the time if you use them it'll either be because you can push/pull a monster into it or to block of a path and have the monster take a detour.
 
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Josh Hagood
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alecm88 wrote:


We've played over 40 scenarios so far and a monster has stepped into a trap cause of friendly allies a couple of times at most. It doesn't really come up that ofte


One thing to note, unless I'm mistaken, is that it only takes one monster to break through traps to open the way for the rest. So unless you form a battle line adjacent to traps like my example turned into... It's mostly just one guy triggering it and the rest following.
 
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michael ray
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goatofdeath wrote:
I see how the infinite movement standard would result in the outcome of the monster stepping into the trap. Though it does seem logically incongruous with the example in the rules. In both this case and the case of example 2, the monster's choice in the context of it's current turn is simple: step into the trap and gain the opportunity to attack, or don't step into the trap and lose that attack opportunity. Yet following the infinite movement standard one monster would jump into the trap to attack yet another would not, which is what seems odd and inconsistent.

The rules state: "It doesn’t matter if the monster can’t get within range to attack with its current movement, as long as there is a path to eventually get within range."

Our group definitely took "eventually" to mean temporally rather than spatially especially when combined with example 2. Meaning a monster would prefer to miss the opportunity to attack and wait for an attack hex to open up rather than jumping into a trap. However, if that's not the case, so be it.

What's interesting is that the infinite movement standard means most of the time ranged attackers will have a much larger degree of self preservation than melee attackers. Melee attackers are much more likely to have their attack hexes blocked by other friendlies. This definitely makes some of the add trap abilities like the tinkerer's potentially more useful as monsters will start barreling through traps when a logjam occurs. I can't decide if I think this will make the game easier or harder. More monsters would be willing to throw themselves through traps to enter melee. Meaning players will potentially be subject to more damage sometimes. Yet trap damage is often not insignificant itself and ignores shields, so those monsters will also become easier to kill.


Like other people have mentioned, it's a very rare situation. You need a line of traps blocking ALL paths to ALL potential attack hexes for ALL enemies, before an enemy will walk on a trap.

Yes, it's slightly harder in theory for a ranged enemy to walk over a trap, but in practice, it's roughly the same, because you're generally not getting swarmed by multiple melee enemies at once, unless something went very wrong, and once again, they'll focus any other path to any other enemy before choosing to walk over a trap.
 
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Jay Johnson
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squegeeboo wrote:
Like other people have mentioned, it's a very rare situation. You need a line of traps blocking ALL paths to ALL potential attack hexes for ALL enemies, before an enemy will walk on a trap.

Or if a trap is placed at a chokepoint, like a doorway, with monsters on side and the player characters on the other side.
 
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Dwight Sullivan
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JayJ79 wrote:
squegeeboo wrote:
Like other people have mentioned, it's a very rare situation. You need a line of traps blocking ALL paths to ALL potential attack hexes for ALL enemies, before an enemy will walk on a trap.

Or if a trap is placed at a chokepoint, like a doorway, with monsters on side and the player characters on the other side.

If you have a Cragheart in your party you can oten make choke points and force the monsters to walk through traps.
 
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