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Subject: Wave 2 & new rulebooks acquired, some questions remain: rss

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Christian J
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Received wave 2 and playing over again with all the new cards, still have some questions:

1. What is the range of the dagger? It has the symbol for Range, but no number next to it. This applies to the Lethargy dagger as well.

2. All daggers state "(RangeSymbol)Ph 2x", Does this mean I roll two times my characters Ph. when attacking? As I typed this I realize it most likely means the range for the dagger equals twice the characters Ph. Is that the case?

3. The Whip: Is there a roll required to use it?

4. Marksman makes the enemy retreat the minimum required distance before attacking. What is a ranged weapons minimum distance? At least 1 space between the attacker and the target? Does this apply to Heroes as well?

5. What do enemies do when they can't reach or see a Hero due to a locked door or something similar? Do they just stand by the door waiting?

6. What does the "Base Formulae Deck" consist of? The rule book clarifies the elements in the element deck but not the Formulae.

7. How can I tell which cards from the expansions are part of the base deck when playing with said expansions?

8. What does this mean:
Quote:
"If you decide to add formulas from an expansion, remember to add to the Alchemical elements deck the exclusive elements of this expansion"
This addendum to the rule book was just a copy paste of a comment I found while searching and even still includes the " at the end. How do I go about adding the elements when using an expansion?

Component Question(s):

1. Is there a character model for the Magma Golem in Vesuvio's Forge? I don't remember seeing one being available.


Edit: Will there be an official Free Company sheet posted any time soon?
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Luca Bernardini
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Hi Mate! I'm very happy you received your stuff, you are the first that have notified that ATM ^^ gratz!

So your question:

Quote:
1. What is the range of the dagger? It has the symbol for Range, but no number next to it. This applies to the Lethargy dagger as well.

2. All daggers state "(RangeSymbol)Ph 2x", Does this mean I roll two times my characters Ph. when attacking? As I typed this I realize it most likely means the range for the dagger equals twice the characters Ph. Is that the case?


Yes the dagger's range is equal to the twice of the hero Ph

Quote:
3. The Whip: Is there a roll required to use it?


Yes, it's a normal attack, if you obtain at least one success don't assign any wound to the enemy but only the Hindered token.

Quote:
4. Marksman makes the enemy retreat the minimum required distance before attacking. What is a ranged weapons minimum distance? At least 1 space between the attacker and the target? Does this apply to Heroes as well


I think there is a misunderstanding, for minimum distance is intended that the Enemy has to move the minimum necessary to have the target in his range.

Quote:
5. What do enemies do when they can't reach or see a Hero due to a locked door or something similar? Do they just stand by the door waiting


Sorry mate, I don't understand your question, do you can explain again pls? ^^

Quote:

6. What does the "Base Formulae Deck" consist of? The rulebook clarifies the elements in the element deck but not the Formulae


The base formulas are those that don't come from Hunt mission or other secondary mission or encounter.

Quote:
7. How can I tell which cards from the expansions are part of the base deck when playing with said expansions?

8. What does this mean:
Quote:
"If you decide to add formulas from an expansion, remember to add to the Alchemical elements deck the exclusive elements of this expansion"
This addendum to the rule book was just a copy paste of a comment I found while searching and even still includes the " at the end. How do I go about adding the elements when using an expansion?


The cards that came from the expansions have the expansion sign in the right corner of the cards

Quote:
Component Question(s):
1. Is there a character model for the Magma Golem in Vesuvio's Forge? I don't remember seeing one being available.


Edit: Will there be an official Free Company sheet posted any time soon?


The magma golem is a resin model sold separately in our web store, yes we are preparing a new company sheet soon

THX for all your support!

Luca LMS

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Orlando Neto
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xSkitz wrote:
Received wave 2 and playing over again with all the new cards, still have some questions:

1. What is the range of the dagger? It has the symbol for Range, but no number next to it. This applies to the Lethargy dagger as well.

2. All daggers state "(RangeSymbol)Ph 2x", Does this mean I roll two times my characters Ph. when attacking? As I typed this I realize it most likely means the range for the dagger equals twice the characters Ph. Is that the case?

3. The Whip: Is there a roll required to use it?

4. Marksman makes the enemy retreat the minimum required distance before attacking. What is a ranged weapons minimum distance? At least 1 space between the attacker and the target? Does this apply to Heroes as well?

5. What do enemies do when they can't reach or see a Hero due to a locked door or something similar? Do they just stand by the door waiting?

6. What does the "Base Formulae Deck" consist of? The rule book clarifies the elements in the element deck but not the Formulae.

7. How can I tell which cards from the expansions are part of the base deck when playing with said expansions?

8. What does this mean:
Quote:
"If you decide to add formulas from an expansion, remember to add to the Alchemical elements deck the exclusive elements of this expansion"
This addendum to the rule book was just a copy paste of a comment I found while searching and even still includes the " at the end. How do I go about adding the elements when using an expansion?

Component Question(s):

1. Is there a character model for the Magma Golem in Vesuvio's Forge? I don't remember seeing one being available.


Edit: Will there be an official Free Company sheet posted any time soon?



awesome!

Did you receive the sleeves? are they good quality?
And about the rpg rules? there are any links to it?
I backed it with a friend and he has the login to the KS page, so I can't ask there.
Thank you!
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Trent Y.
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Nice! What Country are you from? I’ve been very (im)patiently waiting for wave 2.
 
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Christian J
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@Ludus Magnus

Quote:
Quote:
4. Marksman makes the enemy retreat the minimum required distance before attacking. What is a ranged weapons minimum distance? At least 1 space between the attacker and the target? Does this apply to Heroes as well


I think there is a misunderstanding, for minimum distance is intended that the Enemy has to move the minimum necessary to have the target in his range.


I'm still slightly confused. What is the minimum distance for someone with a ranged weapon? Are they incapable of attacking an adjacent hero?

Quote:
Quote:
5. What do enemies do when they can't reach or see a Hero due to a locked door or something similar? Do they just stand by the door waiting


Sorry mate, I don't understand your question, do you can explain again pls? ^^


Sorry I wasn't very clear with this question: In the tutorial mission the 3 Strat. soldiers are on the other side of the building, and the door between us is locked. Do they gather outside of the locked door until I unlock it, regardless of how many turns that may take? Or can enemies move through locked doors without issue?

I'm not sure how often this situation happens through the campaign so I would like to know what the behavior is ASAP.

Quote:
Quote:

6. What does the "Base Formulae Deck" consist of? The rule book clarifies the elements in the element deck but not the Formulae


The base formulas are those that don't come from Hunt mission or other secondary mission or encounter.

Quote:
7. How can I tell which cards from the expansions are part of the base deck when playing with said expansions?

8. What does this mean:
Quote:
"If you decide to add formulas from an expansion, remember to add to the Alchemical elements deck the exclusive elements of this expansion"
This addendum to the rule book was just a copy paste of a comment I found while searching and even still includes the " at the end. How do I go about adding the elements when using an expansion?


The cards that came from the expansions have the expansion sign in the right corner of the cards


Having the expansion symbol added this time is GREATLY appreciated!
What I wanted to know was if there was a way to look at the cards and know which ones belong in the base deck. Is the only way to determine this by going through all the Secondary Missions and removing the Formulae that appear only in those? A simple list would be greatly appreciated.

Do the expansions add any formulae or elements to the BASE deck, or can we assume anything from an expansion is from a secondary mission?

Quote:
Quote:

Edit: Will there be an official Free Company sheet posted any time soon?


yes we are preparing a new company sheet soon

Looking forward to that!

I have another component question too!
Are the models made differently for all of wave 2? They look a lot better, excluding the visible glue on the bases of a few. They also emit a smell rather toxic smell.


@other backers

I'm in the USA, Florida. The USA shipments seemed to have arrived less than 3 hours from me on Friday so I received my shipment on Saturday, I didn't even get a tracking number until this morning!

The sleeves are regular clear sleeves and fit fine and also come in the EXACT amount for the base game + Pandora + Vesuvio.

I'm not sure what RPG rules you're referring to, I might have overlooked it. It does include the Skirmish (PvP) rules though!
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Trent Y.
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Re: Marksman

There isn’t a rule that inhibits point-blank ranged attacks.

Consider Marksman more akin to the AI that controls the unit.

If a Marksman is engaged, they will always spend AP to move away (and enemies don’t need to roll to disengage). Note that if they have the knife gear, when disengaging they auto push a hero one square back (if possible).

They will spend their AP to move in such a way as to also maximize the number of possible attacks. Most of the enemies in NA don’t go over 5AP so they generally will only get one attack per round but it’s conceivable that a unit could come out with tons of AP.

Generally speaking, the minimum range is one square distance (not adjacent). So most Marksman would move one square away and then spend AP to make an attack.
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Christian J
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Thanks Trent! That is a clearer way of looking at it.

So the enemy Marksman could either of the following:
Quote:

A) Move into range to attack (if previously out of range).

B) Disengage a Hero in melee (2AP, right?) and then use the remaining 3AP to attack. (This would be a survival instinct on their part)

C) Reload + Attack, even if there is a Hero in melee for the purpose of maximizing their attacks this round. This scenario would only occur if the AI was unable to reload in its previous turn.

Do these sound right?

I have another question as well:

After drawing cards from the Elements deck, do you log the elements you have and then reshuffle it all together? Or are the types of elements limited by the number of cards until you use it?

Ex. Can I only ever have two Philosopher's Stones in my inventory since there are only two cards for it?
 
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Orlando Neto
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awesome!

I mean this unlocked feature:

200 bgg fans : rpg rules. could not find it in the official site or here in bgg.

 
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Christian J
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@Orlando
Ahh yeah I haven't looked into/seen anything about that. I'll go through the Pandora book later and see if its there. Would you mind deleting the massive quote from your message please? I don't want my questions/the responses getting drowned out

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Geoff ...
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@Luca

I read in KS comments that Australia is not even on it’s way yet, and we might not get ours for a few months. Surely this is not correct as we’ve been promised wave 2 would arrive around May?

I’ve backed NA, ST and BRW but I’m not sure how I feel about it all now.
 
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Trent Y.
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xSkitz wrote:
Thanks Trent! That is a clearer way of looking at it.

So the enemy Marksman could either of the following:
Quote:

A) Move into range to attack (if previously out of range).

B) Disengage a Hero in melee (2AP, right?) and then use the remaining 3AP to attack. (This would be a survival instinct on their part)

C) Reload + Attack, even if there is a Hero in melee for the purpose of maximizing their attacks this round. This scenario would only occur if the AI was unable to reload in its previous turn.

Do these sound right?

I have another question as well:

After drawing cards from the Elements deck, do you log the elements you have and then reshuffle it all together? Or are the types of elements limited by the number of cards until you use it?

Ex. Can I only ever have two Philosopher's Stones in my inventory since there are only two cards for it?


Mostly correct but I led you astray a bit.

By a strict reading of the rules, enemies engage heroes and only heroes disengage. Enemies never need to roll to disengage nor do they take the disengage action. They can just move away freely.

This brings us to the problem with the Knife gear, which references enemies disengaging. Sadly, despite how much I love NA, the game is full of terminology problems.

So I take this to read as:
If adjacenct to a hero, they move away (just 1AP/square). If they happe. To have a knife gear, when the initially do this, they also “knock back” the hero one square away.

Everything else you said sounds right to me. Basically the AI is attempting achieve as many attacks again you as possible and Marksman enemies are always trying to move so their target is not adjacent but within range. If you are doing that, you are doing them correctly.

Re: Elements.

You draw from the deck and note which elements you received. Once the situation is done, you shuffle the deck.
So during a map, when you pick up a loot bag, you draw immediately and mark that element. You don’t shuffle the deck until the end of the scenario. So in a given scenario you can only acquire two philosopher stones.

Once a scenario is over, you recieve the listed rewards in elements. Start with a shuffled deck, draw as needed, record and then reshuffle the deck.


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Christian J
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re: Engaging/Disengaging
Yeah I went back to the section with a clearer less-stressed head just now and see it says:
Quote:
Enemies on the other hand are automatically disengaged without needing to pass a test, with a normal movement action.


So whenever an enemy with Knife happens to be moving away from an adjacent hero they push them back 1 space for free? That makes sense until I consider the next point below.

The rule book says this for Engaging:
Quote:
Engage (AP 1)
Using this action characters can attempt to block
adjacent opponents from moving.

It says Characters, which implies a hero can do this as well. It sounds like doing so would be 100% pointless as any Enemy can take a regular movement action regardless of if they are engaged or not. This makes me believe that an enemy needs to be engaged in the first place for Knife to trigger, either because they engaged the hero or the Hero engaged them.

Edit: The rule book states that engaging is an action that must be done by either the hero/enemy. Marksman states "If adjacent to a Hero, the enemy always disengage. The enemy with this skill will attempt to move back the minimum required distance to be able to attack". Does this mean that by nature of a Hero being next to a marksman they are "engaged" with them, and any movement the Marksman takes it is a Disengage action, triggering the Knife?

----

re: Elements
Thanks again. Is that in the rule book and I missed it or is that another thing we have to interpret?

I really regret not having proof read this rule book more 7 months ago I really like this game but I have to do a lot of prep deciphering the rules before bringing it to the table with other players.

Definitely going to try making reference sheets or something stating what actions Heroes can do and what Enemies can do, etc.

----

Another question:
Enemies that have Light Armour: "Provides the character with 1 extra wound. This is already included in the character’s profile."

Does this mean the fact that they have light armor is just flavor as there is nothing that needs to be done by me when determining how much damage I do/need to do?

----
Re: Ranged attacks
Previously I asked about minimum range. I'm going through the rule book again to compile reference sheets and I see that it does specify that no ranged attacks can be done against an adjacent target.
Quote:
"To perform a Ranged attack a character cannot be adjacent to the target."
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Trent Y.
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Disengage- the original rules had no reference to characters, only enemies.
So I’ve been going by the idea that enemies exclusively engage.

Engagement is a bit of a mess. There are no tokens to track who is engaged and who is not. I’ve been positioning the enemy mini to sit on the edge of the hero’s base to show engagement.

As to whether heroes enage enemies, I am not 100% sure, due to them adding the word character to the section.

There is a line that states that enemies always (automatically) engage their target when attacking. This could suggest that heroes do this, but I’ve always read the text that enemies exclusively refers to the bad guys.

Re: Elements
P25 in the PDF has the instructions for when to shuffle. The last few paragraphs on the page.

Re: Enemy gear
Another strange part of the game. Light and Heavy armor appear to me to be artifact rules which were left on the cards and left in the rulebook, but have no function. I figure in a previous playtest version they did have a function but those tules were removed before it when to print. Just a guess.

Ruleswise, they serve no function and can be ignored.

I personally find the enemy armor to be a little abused when you compare the crossbowmen and the merc soldiers. They have the same health but the soldiers have armor. This suggests that the soldiers actually have 3 Health but have +1 due to armor. Whatever, it’s a trivial pet peeve.

Note that some gear has zero function and isn’t even mentioned in the rulebook (i.e quiver).

Re: Ranged attacks
Good find. I’m also building a reference doc.

The enemies really need a solid reference document. They have too many easy to forget skills, gear and attack effects.
The gipsy and the faun musician are really bad for this. I’ve got a document ongoing but am waiting for my 2nd wave to arrive to compare the cards.
 
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Orlando Neto
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xSkitz wrote:
@Orlando
Ahh yeah I haven't looked into/seen anything about that. I'll go through the Pandora book later and see if its there. Would you mind deleting the massive quote from your message please? I don't want my questions/the responses getting drowned out



Done, didn't see the waves of quotes.
 
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Luca Bernardini
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Geoff wrote:
@Luca

I read in KS comments that Australia is not even on it’s way yet, and we might not get ours for a few months. Surely this is not correct as we’ve been promised wave 2 would arrive around May?

I’ve backed NA, ST and BRW but I’m not sure how I feel about it all now.


Hi Geoff!

The factory is finalizing the production for other countries so the ships are near to start, we are monitoring this very near and take you informed in the same moment we have update

Luca LMS
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Walt MacEachern
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I also just received my wave 2 package and I’m trying to get the whole thing organized. I shelved the wave 1 release until all of the glitches were fixed. I now have the tutorial scenarios set up and I’m re-learn8ng the game system. I’d like to add to the discussion begun here.

First and foremost, the Pandora’s box is fantastic and adds an incredible amount of ambitious content. Whether or not it all merges well with the original game, I applaud the effort.

Second, for those just getting the package, there is no explanation in the wave 2 bundle, but complete replacemen5 decks are 8ncluded for the base game enemies, quest, wanted, Hunt, and element decks, along with the same for Vesuvius Forge. There is a deck marked for another expansion I don’t recognize. As Luca has noted, the cards are clearly labeled as to where they belong. You will need to tr@sh the original decks along with the rulebooks. For me this was an evenings work made longer by not knowing if it was a complete replacement or a partial that required sav8n* some of the old.

Third, there’s a lot of status and wound token management with no provision for how to place them without cluttering things immensely, much like in Descent. The tokens are nice and thick but take up considerable board space. In the tutorial there are four identical soldier units that move around a lot and must be kept with wound, stunned and hindered status. I preferred the Gloomhaven tracking system which numbered the standees and tracked them off board. It gets messy. I’ll probably try to create an off board area for this.

Finally, has anyone tried the optional reaction rule? I tried it with the Acted tokens and it just doesn’t seem well thought out. If an enemy attacks as a result must they 5hen use all of their remains AP as part of the reaction, or does that wait for their turn? I’ll probably not use it unless it gets further clarified.

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Luca Bernardini
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waltermac wrote:
I also just received my wave 2 package and I’m trying to get the whole thing organized. I shelved the wave 1 release until all of the glitches were fixed. I now have the tutorial scenarios set up and I’m re-learn8ng the game system. I’d like to add to the discussion begun here.

First and foremost, the Pandora’s box is fantastic and adds an incredible amount of ambitious content. Whether or not it all merges well with the original game, I applaud the effort.

Second, for those just getting the package, there is no explanation in the wave 2 bundle, but complete replacemen5 decks are 8ncluded for the base game enemies, quest, wanted, Hunt, and element decks, along with the same for Vesuvius Forge. There is a deck marked for another expansion I don’t recognize. As Luca has noted, the cards are clearly labeled as to where they belong. You will need to tr@sh the original decks along with the rulebooks. For me this was an evenings work made longer by not knowing if it was a complete replacement or a partial that required sav8n* some of the old.

Third, there’s a lot of status and wound token management with no provision for how to place them without cluttering things immensely, much like in Descent. The tokens are nice and thick but take up considerable board space. In the tutorial there are four identical soldier units that move around a lot and must be kept with wound, stunned and hindered status. I preferred the Gloomhaven tracking system which numbered the standees and tracked them off board. It gets messy. I’ll probably try to create an off board area for this.

Finally, has anyone tried the optional reaction rule? I tried it with the Acted tokens and it just doesn’t seem well thought out. If an enemy attacks as a result must they 5hen use all of their remains AP as part of the reaction, or does that wait for their turn? I’ll probably not use it unless it gets further clarified.



Hi Walt!

I'm very happy that you receive the stuff! You can trash all the I waves cards and rulebook, those you find in Pandora completely replaces the old one

Enjoy

Luca LMS
 
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Christian J
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waltermac wrote:

Finally, has anyone tried the optional reaction rule? I tried it with the Acted tokens and it just doesn’t seem well thought out. If an enemy attacks as a result must they 5hen use all of their remains AP as part of the reaction, or does that wait for their turn? I’ll probably not use it unless it gets further clarified.

Re: Reactions

When a Hero's token enters a section of the Horologium with an enemy token in it, you check all corresponding enemies of that type. If that specific hero is in the Control Area of any of those enemies, they take their turn IMMEDIATELY instead of in the normal order.
Afterwards they receive the "acted" token, and the enemy token on the Horologium remains in place.

After the enemy has acted the hero may resume their turn.

When the Horologium turns again and gets to the Enemy token, all corresponding enemies activate, using full AP. HOWEVER, the specific miniatures that acted due to Reaction don't do anything, since they already did their turn. Their turn is consumed by spending all their AP to remove the "acted" token. The other enemies of that group that did not activate do their turn as normal. Afterwards the Horologium Enemy Token moves forward the full AP amount as normal.
 
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Chris Powell
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My manticore came with its tail broken, who do I contact about that.

 
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Walt MacEachern
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Mine too. I posted a message at the company site. They have a list of this stuff, they say.
 
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Trent Y.
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solmead wrote:
My manticore came with its tail broken, who do I contact about that.



Is it ungluable or missing?
 
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Luca Bernardini
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Yes, guys, you can open a ticket here!

https://ludusmagnusstudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us

For models that can be repaired, I suggest to try the reparation to avoid the wait for the change but anyway is up to you

Luca LMS
 
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Daniel Louis
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Quote:
Quote:
5. What do enemies do when they can't reach or see a Hero due to a locked door or something similar? Do they just stand by the door waiting


Sorry mate, I don't understand your question, do you can explain again pls? ^^


Sorry I wasn't very clear with this question: In the tutorial mission the 3 Strat. soldiers are on the other side of the building, and the door between us is locked. Do they gather outside of the locked door until I unlock it, regardless of how many turns that may take? Or can enemies move through locked doors without issue?

I'm not sure how often this situation happens through the campaign so I would like to know what the behavior is ASAP.



I am still wondering what the answer to this question is. I have had this issue since the initial release.
 
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Trent Y.
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Danlouis86 wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
5. What do enemies do when they can't reach or see a Hero due to a locked door or something similar? Do they just stand by the door waiting


Sorry mate, I don't understand your question, do you can explain again pls? ^^


Sorry I wasn't very clear with this question: In the tutorial mission the 3 Strat. soldiers are on the other side of the building, and the door between us is locked. Do they gather outside of the locked door until I unlock it, regardless of how many turns that may take? Or can enemies move through locked doors without issue?

I'm not sure how often this situation happens through the campaign so I would like to know what the behavior is ASAP.



I am still wondering what the answer to this question is. I have had this issue since the initial release.


The soldiers will gather outside the door, as close as possible (thus they will take up the space adjacent to the door and the two space adjacent to that. Essentially, they will tie up all three spaces that your heroes should be able to exit from. If all three soldiers get to the three spaces close to the door, then your heroes cannot exit the building.

The enemies cannot move through the locked door themselves.

I cannot recall if this exact situation occurs again, but I doubt it. It’s rather specific to this tutorial.

The tutorial is just designed to teach you how to fight, how to follow simple AI commands and how to act quickly.

Mild Spoiler/Tip about the Tutorial
Spoiler (click to reveal)
It’s all about the Scum in this scenario. She can climb up the building and take out the Crossbowman and get the lever. However, should the soldiers manage to take up all 3 ‘exit’ spots, the Scumb can take one out via ranged attacks. She can do so from of harm, from the soldiers, but time can run out.

 
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Walt MacEachern
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Actually, Trent, the rules were changed to allow you to move out of the building to the closest empty square so you can exit past them, but it gets bloody if you don't use Scum to throw daggers at them from the roof.

Also: Scum can climb down on the northern side of the building (behind the tree) which will get the AI to react to try to move the soldiers and try to attack her away from the door. She can then climb back up before they reach her while the rest of the team exits by the doorway.
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