Legend Signum
Ukraine
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Hello dear community,

We are "Legends Of Signum" developers team. One month already in BGG and we very like this portal with useful information and possibility to communicate for all board gamers.
The only problem is about moderation of violations. Couple weeks ago, we have found a slander in comments under our Legends of Signum page on BGG. One of the users left comment with next content:

https://imgur.com/a/MBLlu7Y

"The company infringes on intellectual property. Their Kickstarter was stopped. Avoid."

Also he has made an assessment - 1 point.

Our position that every user has their rights to make any assessment, because it is their opinion and it is understandable at all, but the message he left is complete slander which can easily undermine our credibility for new people, who can enter at our page here on BGG.

1) We have not infringe IP until it was not proven. With such abovementioned approach, everyone could make a claim to another person and blame they before the judgement will prove it.
2) KS was not stopped - it was frozen until clarification. Clarification will last 10-14 days since the moment of freezing (18th of May), so it is 14 days since that moment, we hope in few days we will be unfrozen.

Thus, we consider user's abovementioned message as a slander and one week ago we have directed this demand to administration. Their reply was quick enough, but they have answered following:

"Regarding the user comment - we are not responsible for any of the content our users post to the site. Each user owns all of his/her own content and is solely responsible for it. As such, this is not something we are in a position to get involved in. Your issue is with the user who left the comment."

We answered that with such approach users can make violations even badder violations, but moderators will do nothing with it. We were very flustrated with their response, but we kept our fighting against injustice, we ask they to show us their community rules and we have found there some interesting notes:

https://imgur.com/a/EaKJv4A

In their rules we have found the note about slander, therefore they must prevent such violations.
That means their reply to us was false, and then moderator told me that they can hide a message with violation if they will find a violation there. This message is still not hidden and it is very sad.

It was a big month of hard work and the realization, that everyone here can blame you in thing you never did and you even will not be protected, demotivate us. But we still looking for support of administration and community to fight against injustice. We sure that we not only the ones, who faced similar problem and we hope this problem with will help to avoid future misunderstandings. We can assure you that every claim on us does not make any sense and soon we will be free. The truth with us, that is why we will defeat any injustice.

Thanks to everyone for their attention.

With Best Regards,
Signumgame team
 
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Derry Salewski
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Cool?

If you're going to send a cease and desist to a US company maybe that's libel, not slander. Not actually a lawyer. Who knows.

But yeah. You definitely want to police everything everyone says about your totally not stopped, just frozen by kickstarter while being investigated for law breaking, kickstarter . . .
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Jim F
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Check out the list of fans - click on their profiles. Really interesting.

Did the guy who commented on your game say anything political? (and not connected with gender politics which gets a free pass). If so you might get him a ban.
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Legend Signum
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Yes, you see our position, that is exactly why we've raised an issue.


Yevhenii: I'm not actually the one who knows a big difference between label and slander, but they both are indicated in their rules as violations, so that is not making a difference in front of restrictions. As stated, we're all equal before the law.
 
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Liam
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Moved from BGG Suggestions to Complaints.

Just a volunteer admin - I don't make or have any say (beyond any other user) when it comes to the site.

The only thing I would point out is:

Quote:
Providing personal information about any person for malevolent purposes (aka "doxxing"), including libel, slander, defamation, or harassment.

From Community Rules.

The mention of libel and slander you highlight is solely in the context of personal attacks against individuals. In the comment you highlight no person was named only a company/publisher. My assumption is; this rule is designed to protect individuals not companies from criticism or scrutiny.

Either way I hope Kickstarter can resolve any issue with your project so it can be unfrozen and can move on.
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Legend Signum
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Thank you for the support.

About "Providing personal information about any person for malevolent purposes (aka "doxxing"), including libel, slander, defamation, or harassment."

I cannot see here a mention about individual persons in this rule.
There are two types of person in legal field:
Physical person and Legal(Juristic) person.

As Legends of Signum is a developers company of the game - this is a Legal Person and it corresponds for community rules interpretations.

Sincerely, Yevhenii
Signumgame team
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Liam
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Our interpretations of the Community Rules' meaning, scope and nature differ.

We're both entitled to our opinion.
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Legend Signum
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Yes, but, in my opinion, the purpose of the rules is to be clear on its statements to avoid possible disputes between sides.
Because of this slander message, next tabletop players who enters our page will find a message where "Their project on Kickstarter is stopped because of violations. Avoid." Anyway, the first impressions of newcomers will be negative despite the interest to the gameplay at all and it makes a very negative image of Legends of Signum.

I'm just asking to cease user's lie and slander violations. He could keep his 1 point of assessment, or blame us in private message whatever he want, or to say his words with additional "In my opinion", that all is normal, but not to tell a lie before community eyes. I hope you will understand our situation.
 
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Grant
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:
Yes, but, in my opinion, the purpose of the rules is to be clear on its statements to avoid possible disputes between sides.
Because of this slander message, next tabletop players who enters our page will find a message where "Their project on Kickstarter is stopped because of violations. Avoid." Anyway, the first impressions of newcomers will be negative despite the interest to the gameplay at all and it makes a very negative image of Legends of Signum.

I'm just asking to cease user's lie and slander violations. He could keep his 1 point of assessment, or blame us in private message whatever he want, or to say his words with additional "In my opinion", that all is normal, but not to tell a lie before community eyes. I hope you will understand our situation.

Does the term "Streisand effect" mean anything to you?

Also, maybe wait until KS un-suspends your project before making a big stink? Because right now, that user's comment looks more true than false.
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:


Not a lawyer, but I don't think this qualifies as slander or libel. I assume they are talking about things like this:

Arcana box art - check the fan lady:


Legends of Signum minis:


Links courtesy of this thread:
Frozen Kickstarter
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Legend Signum
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"Streisand effect" works when the person trying to delete information, which exposes person's secrets an the like, and this effect works only because of person want to hide such an info about them. Our situation is different. We want to delete a lie, and we sure it will not take its Streisand effect, because we just fight against injustice and to avoid newcommers to see the slander and false information which can change impressions about the game.

Put simply, Streisand effect works when somebody try to hide bad information about them. We just want to delete false information. It is a big difference.

"Because right now, that user's comment looks more true than false."
____________________________________
In which part it looks more true?

1) "The company infringes on intellectual property." - until it was not proven - it is a false.
2) "Their Kickstarter was stopped." - it was not stopped, but suspended. The difference between two words is that suspended means it could be continued, stopped - no.

 
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Legend Signum
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In the game we have more than 200 models, and if 2% of them have something similar to other project's - it does not make sense. While developing, we are inspired in medieval culture, clothes and concepts, making everything with approach to keep this spirit.
If it would be the way how you suggest - everyone would make a claim to another person and blame they before the judgement will prove it, it is not right. Until it was not proven - it does not make sense.

By the way, each miniature has their own unique story and special appearance, every miniature is unique person with inimitable abilities,
we also have completely new genre in the game industry, the combination of wargame and card game with miniatures. We still didn't receive any claim or sue. If we will, we've discussed this with our lawyers, we confident and completely know our rights and way to protect against injustice.
 
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Grant
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:
"Streisand effect" works when the person trying to delete information, which exposes person's secrets an the like, and this effect works only because of person want to hide such an info about them. Our situation is different. We want to delete a lie, and we sure it will not take its Streisand effect, because we just fight against injustice and to avoid newcommers to see the slander and false information which can change impressions about the game.

Put simply, Streisand effect works when somebody try to hide bad information about them. We just want to delete false information. It is a big difference.

"Because right now, that user's comment looks more true than false."
____________________________________
In which part it looks more true?

1) "The company infringes on intellectual property." - until it was not proven - it is a false.
2) "Their Kickstarter was stopped." - it was not stopped, but suspended. The difference between two words is that suspended means it could be continued, stopped - no.


Things that have been stopped can be started again. "Stopped" is not a KS term. You're choosing to define it one way, but you could just as easily use it as a synonym for suspended in this case. Your project has indeed been stopped. It has not been CANCELED. If the user said that, then they would be wrong.
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Legend Signum
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If you are american, you are native speaker. I am ukrainian and, of course, could have some mistakes in interpretations, but

Stopped is past tense and past participle of stop:

https://imgur.com/a/397Pkyj

cancelled comes from "cancel" and suspended from "suspend"

From these variotions only suspend-suspended is completely clear and does not make additional questions when it's said about probability of KS continuation.
Let's take a closer look at the context:

"was stopped" really could be treated differently, but he has written this right after the next sentence "The company infringes on intellectual property." - he said is as a fact and the only one logical conclusion of his next sentence "KS was stopped" - means it came to its completely end.

Tell me, if i'm not right.
 
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Grant
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:
If you are american, you are native speaker. I am ukrainian and, of course, could have some mistakes in interpretations, but

Stopped is past tense and past participle of stop:

https://imgur.com/a/397Pkyj

cancelled comes from "cancel" and suspended from "suspend"

From these variotions only suspend-suspended is completely clear and does not make additional questions when it's said about probability of KS continuation.
Let's take a closer look at the context:

"was stopped" really could be treated differently, but he has written this right after the next sentence "The company infringes on intellectual property." - he said is as a fact and the only one logical conclusion of his next sentence "KS was stopped" - means it came to its completely end.

Tell me, if i'm not right.

We could go back and forth debating the meaning of words, but the bottom line is this: it is NEVER a good look for publishers to call out specific users. If your KS is cleared and all is good, and that user turns out to be a liar, then your product will need to speak for itself to convince others of that. And then more people should write more positive things to drown out the negative people.

This is the internet. You CANNOT control the message 100%. You've already messaged BGG about it and they gave you their ruling. You need to let it go.
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On top of that, anyone doing research about the game at this stage can easily find the reasons that a user might say that. And I get wary of games that games that only have high ratings before the game is available because it feels like the publishers just recruited people to give it high ratings.
 
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Legend Signum
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Your are completely right.
We just making everything due to realization that we are a brand new company. Currently, we don't have a million army of support, therefore, false comments could take away boardgame admirers, who even did'nt get acquainted with gameplay, making bad first impressions about it. We will not going to make fake comments and fake assessments to hide this slander one. We will be waiting for players to make their true assessments. Yes, we hope we gave all the necessary information to the administration, and if their decision to do nothing - we really need to let it go, considering they are doing everything properly.
 
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Pete
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col_w wrote:
LegendsOfSignum wrote:


Not a lawyer, but I don't think this qualifies as slander or libel. I assume they are talking about things like this:

Arcana box art - check the fan lady:


Legends of Signum minis:


Links courtesy of this thread:
Frozen Kickstarter
Subscribed!

Pete (loves a good IP thread)
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grant5 wrote:
You need to let it go.


That makes the most sense, since the kickstarter was Frozen....


(Yes! After a month of nothing, Complaint Department entertainment is back!)
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Pro-tip on business basics:

Choose your battles wisely. You don't have as much powder in reserves as you may think.

Spending time chasing down a BGG user, who has every right to make whatever comment they like (this isn't libel/defamation/etc. by any stretch) is a really, really, really poor use of whatever limited resources you and your small company have at their disposal.

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Rich Shipley
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My advice would be this:

Find someone else to be in charge of communications. You don't have the temperment for it.
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I think this is a battle the OP "really" shouldn't have planted a flag on. The outcome is never in their favor.

Streisand? More like Shillking.
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Olli Juhala
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Oh boy, this thread was funny.
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:

1) "The company infringes on intellectual property." - until it was not proven - it is a false.



That is not in fact true. Although the details of any defence would depend on which court jursidiction you took the hypothetical action under.

If you must go down this route, I'd strongly advise you to talk to a lawyer, as your comments here could already be construed as prejudicial to any future attempted legal action.

(Not a lawyer. But I do have a journalism degree so I do know the libel laws reasonably well).
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:

As Legends of Signum is a developers company of the game - this is a Legal Person and it corresponds for community rules interpretations.

Sincerely, Yevhenii
Signumgame team


Wait, you're actually their lawyer? Crikey.
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