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Alhambra» Forums » Rules

Subject: End game questions rss

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AGN1964 AGN1964
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1) What is the exact order for taking and placing tiles at the end of the game. I can see options:
a) Players choice: Hand them all out first, then place them in any order.
b) Take one and place it immediately. (What order??)

2) For 2 player games, when you buy a tile, you have three options:
a) Place it legally in the Alhambra.
b) Place it your Reserve.
c) Give it to Dirk.

At the end of the game, the rules say to place the tile according to the rules. Does that still include giving a tile to Dirk? Or does it have to go in your Alhambra or in the your reserve?

Thanks.
 
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Vic R
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Pure mathematics is the world's best game. It is more absorbing than chess, more of a gamble than poker, and lasts longer than Monopoly. It's free. It can be played anywhere - Archimedes did it in a bathtub
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For what is worth, I have always played 1a) players choice and in 2 player games you can give the last tile to dirk, because there is not any special exception for last round, and sometimes is better to give to Dirk than to keep to yourself (for example when you are too few of one colour but Dirk can challenge first place to your opponent)
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Tomello Visello
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Quote:
Subject: End game questions

Consider this important principle,

What is not stated in the rules is just as important as what is.


Your questions are mostly asking if there is something different at the end. My guidance is that the same mid-game rules still apply for your topics because there is no statement otherwise.
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AGN1964 AGN1964
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Thanks Vic, that's what we did.

Quote:
Consider this important principle [...] asking if there is something different at the end [...] no statement otherwise.


The first thing we did was to apply this principle. We came to BBG with our questions because it does not apply.

1) There is a difference in the game play: at no point in the mid-game can 2+ players place tiles simultaneously. In the mid-game, one player completes their turn before the next starts, so this does not happen and there is therefore no wording in the mid-game rules to cover it. So, we have no default to fall back on.

2) The rule wording is different, despite your implication that it is not. If the author uses the same term, I do indeed assume they expect us to follow the same procedure as outlined with the original definition. However, if the author takes the trouble to use to use a different term, I assume they want something different.

In this case, the mid-game term is "buy" (my emphasis):
Quote:
Buying the tiles
A player can buy a building tile ...
Whenever they buy a building tile ... they can give the building tile to Dirk.


However the end-game rule does not use "buy", it uses "give".
Quote:
The remaining building tiles from the market building are given to ...
Building tiles given too players in this way ...


The author uses "given" twice, so this is no simple slip. The section is titled "Buying and positioning tiles at the end of the game". Further, each sentence could easily be written to use the earlier terminology, with no less clarity and no increase in space. The change looked deliberate, so we need to understand why it was made.

3) Finally, the end-game section has new text to override the "positioning building tile" section, which is section relevant to giving a tile to Dirk. The new instructions are simpler, for example, not referencing the reserve. When a rule book replaces text with different instructions, I assume they indicate something new happens: they left out the reserve, did they mean to leave out Dirk too? A simple alternative would have been to use some variation of "as above" to avoid restating that section; this is exactly what this author does when telling you to use the existing building rules. If they had said "use the existing positioning and building rules." your principle would have been sufficient.

 
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Tomello Visello
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AGN1964 wrote:
2) The rule wording is different, despite your implication that it is not. If the author uses the same term, I do indeed assume they expect us to follow the same procedure as outlined with the original definition. However, if the author takes the trouble to use to use a different term, I assume they want something different.

In this case, the mid-game term is "buy" (my emphasis):
Quote:
Buying the tiles
A player can buy a building tile ...
Whenever they buy a building tile ... they can give the building tile to Dirk.


However the end-game rule does not use "buy", it uses "give".
Quote:
The remaining building tiles from the market building are given to ...
Building tiles given too players in this way ...


The author uses "given" twice, so this is no simple slip. The section is titled "Buying and positioning tiles at the end of the game". Further, each sentence could easily be written to use the earlier terminology, with no less clarity and no increase in space. The change looked deliberate, so we need to understand why it was made.


I believe you place an inordinate weight on the meaning of "give". I would make two points:

1) Going beyond the fragment you use, the full sentence is "The remaining building tiles from the building market are given to the players who have the most money of the respective currency in their hand (it does not matter how much the building costs)." I have no trouble accepting that I have thus "bought" them. At this point in the game the money cards have no further meaning, whether in my hand or in the bank.


2) In describing a public auction I have no discomfort at all in saying the item on bid is "given to the highest bidder".

 
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Tomello Visello
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AGN1964 wrote:
1) There is a difference in the game play: at no point in the mid-game can 2+ players place tiles simultaneously. In the mid-game, one player completes their turn before the next starts, so this does not happen and there is therefore no wording in the mid-game rules to cover it. So, we have no default to fall back on.

At this point in the game there are at most 3 tiles left to hand out, and each is a different color. I am not yet able to conjure up a situation where, for example, my choice of placing a White tile would become dependant upon what you do with a Green one.

Thus I have never entertained that (independant) simultaneous placement could become an issue. I would need to see an example.

 
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Dave D
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TVis wrote:
AGN1964 wrote:
1) There is a difference in the game play: at no point in the mid-game can 2+ players place tiles simultaneously. In the mid-game, one player completes their turn before the next starts, so this does not happen and there is therefore no wording in the mid-game rules to cover it. So, we have no default to fall back on.

At this point in the game there are at most 3 tiles left to hand out, and each is a different color. I am not yet able to conjure up a situation where, for example, my choice of placing a White tile would become dependant upon what you do with a Green one.

Thus I have never entertained that (independant) simultaneous placement could become an issue. I would need to see an example.



I agree that it shouldn't matter to me where an opponent places their green tile.

But could it depend on which opponent got the green tile ? Say I get the two other tiles, and can only place one of them. If A got the green tile, they now have more green tiles than me, so I need to beat them on white, so choose to place that one. But if it was B that got the green tile, maybe it's more important that I place the other tile in order to beat them on that colour.

(Seems a bit unlikely, though.)
 
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Tomello Visello
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divenal wrote:
I agree that it shouldn't matter to me where an opponent places their green tile.

But could it depend on which opponent got the green tile ? Say I get the two other tiles, and can only place one of them. If A got the green tile, they now have more green tiles than me, so I need to beat them on white, so choose to place that one. But if it was B that got the green tile, maybe it's more important that I place the other tile in order to beat them on that colour.

(Seems a bit unlikely, though.)

I got two tiles but can only place one (and the unlikely case that I am in a tie breaking position for both) ? I simply choose the one with the highest ranking color - for my best score.

(there are only 3 tiles involved, and your example allowed me to have 2 of them)

 
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