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Innovation» Forums » Rules

Subject: Claiming Special Achievements rss

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Peter Mumford
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I think it has been established that you can claim Special Achievements on someone else's turn, if you share a dogma effect. I can't find a link.

But, can you claim on someone else's turn if you just didn't notice that you had met the condition when it had been your turn?

And, if you don't notice that you can claim an achievement, and then an opponent meets the condition (after you met the condition), can your opponent claim the achievement?

My inclination would be yes to both.
 
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B C Z
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Two minds:

1: You snooze, you lose -- if you fail to notice you met a condition, you have lost your opportunity to make a claim.

2: The Cards speak -- special achievements are awarded 'immediately' when a condition is met. If it's noticed later and can be verified that the condition was met previously, then that player should be able to claim it.


Since NOT claiming an achievement can change players actions (when they try to make moves to claim it later), I'll lean towards (1), but the table generally points out automatic claims (per (2)) so the situation is avoided.

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Ben Kyo
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Are you playing in a tournament?

If not, we call failure to claim a special achievement an oversight, akin to a rule blunder, and fix it the easiest way by awarding it to the person who forgot to claim it.

Of course, you could always play that remembering to claim special achievements is a necessary skill to win, and give the achievement to the eligible player who touches it first, and that would be fine too. Personally, I find the number of special achievements with expansions to be a bit overwhelming, and I'm happy to help my opponent(s) claim them when they become eligible.
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Murr Rockstroh
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byronczimmer wrote:
2: The Cards speak -- special achievements are awarded 'immediately' when a condition is met. If it's noticed later and can be verified that the condition was met previously, then that player should be able to claim it

....the table generally points out automatic claims (per (2)) so the situation is avoided.

This ^^
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Andy Latto
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byronczimmer wrote:
Two minds:

1: You snooze, you lose -- if you fail to notice you met a condition, you have lost your opportunity to make a claim.

2: The Cards speak -- special achievements are awarded 'immediately' when a condition is met. If it's noticed later and can be verified that the condition was met previously, then that player should be able to claim it.


Since NOT claiming an achievement can change players actions (when they try to make moves to claim it later), I'll lean towards (1), but the table generally points out automatic claims (per (2)) so the situation is avoided.



The rules for special achievements say "If you meet the conditions for one take it immediately". They don't say you may take it; they say "take it". So not taking it immediately is a violation of the rules.

I think 2 is what the rules say.
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Peter Mumford
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Thanks, folks, those are good points. I like the logic of number 2.
 
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Jeff Finazzo
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What if someone claims it and another player realized they met the conditions prior to that person claiming it, but didn't?
 
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Andy Latto
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By not claiming the achievement, you broke the rules. So you cope in whatever way you normally try to cope with discovering part way through a game that you broke the rules. Sometimes it seems right to continue on, sometimes to back up the game to the point where the error occured, and sometimes it seems right to modify the game state in your best estimate of what it would now be if you were playing correctly.

In this case, what I would usually do is give the special achievement to the person who earned it firzt, but if the person who earned it second had just taken an action with the purpose of gaining the achievement, allow him to rewind that action if possible.
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Peter Mumford
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I think of it as the special achievements not actually being claimed by players. They are awarded to the first player to fulfill the requirements.

So it's the responsibility of all players to ensure this happens.

Subsequent players to fulfill get bumkiss.
 
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Jeremy Moritz
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So just to clarify most of your positions (#2), it would be in the best interest of a highly competitive player to avoid claiming any earned special achievements until after his opponents have expended actions, resources, and mental energy trying to earn them! Then after an opponent claims it, this player can stop him and say "Actually that should be mine!" Alternatively, players can believe that he has fewer achievements than he really has, so he can pull off a surprise win at the end by claiming several at once. It all comes down to how well he can convince his opponents that he wasn't paying attention.

Yeah, this (#2) is all kinds of bad. Don't create perverse incentives!

Much better to play "You snooze, you lose." Then incentives are created for everyone to pay attention and know the rules instead of providing special rewards to those who feign ignorance or don't pay attention.
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David Moritz
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I think it's best for rules to be determined for competitive play. They can always be relaxed in a casual setting. Therefore, I think achievements must be claimed by the eligible person and cannot be given by other players. Further more, if someone is eligible for an achievement but delays claiming it until another person is eligible, then it should follow the pattern of the person whose turn it is gets first dibs then goes clockwise from there. That way, it's within the competitive player's best interest to claim as soon as possible. If they choose to delay their claim, while that may be strategic, it's at the risk of losing it.

This would be especially important while playing with Figures as delaying your claim actually manipulates the hands of your opponents.
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Ben Kyo
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jeremymoritz wrote:
Much better to play "You snooze, you lose."

Better still to point out when your opponent is eligible and/or not play with jerks.

Still, #2 would be necessary in a tournament, sure.
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Jeremy Moritz
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Benkyo wrote:

Better still to point out when your opponent is eligible and/or not play with jerks.


No need for a character attack against your gaming buddies. Some things are not obvious: Was it a real oversight or is he fibbing? Was he trying his best to notice his special achievements or not? Does he keep benefitting from his carelessness at the expense of the other players? Why argue these points?!

By arguing in favor of "The Cards Speak", you're advocating for a rule that specifically rewards players who are not paying as close of attention. They benefit from their own oversight. It doesn't mean they're jerks if they benefit from this. It may be unintentional, or it may be PARTIALLY intentional (like they might not go out of their way to count all their hexes or icons and instead devote mental energy in other ways). But if you don't want them to play that way, don't reward that style of play.

It's basic economics: rules create incentives and incentives drive behavior. Ideally, do you want people to pay better attention to the special achievements and pick them up as soon as they have met the qualifying conditions? If so, then the rules (house rules or otherwise) should reward that kind of play.
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Peter Mumford
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jeremymoritz wrote:
By arguing in favor of "The Cards Speak", you're advocating for a rule that specifically rewards players who are not paying as close of attention. They benefit from their own oversight. It doesn't mean they're jerks if they benefit from this. It may be unintentional, or it may be PARTIALLY intentional (like they might not go out of their way to count all their hexes or icons and instead devote mental energy in other ways). But if you don't want them to play that way, don't reward that style of play.

This is the way the online game works. As soon as you meet the condition, special achievements are awarded to you by the game-state itself. The player's intention is not relevant.
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Ben Kyo
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jeremymoritz wrote:
Benkyo wrote:

Better still to point out when your opponent is eligible and/or not play with jerks.


No need for a character attack against your gaming buddies. Some things are not obvious: Was it a real oversight or is he fibbing? Was he trying his best to notice his special achievements or not? Does he keep benefitting from his carelessness at the expense of the other players? Why argue these points?!

By arguing in favor of "The Cards Speak", you're advocating for a rule that specifically rewards players who are not paying as close of attention. They benefit from their own oversight. It doesn't mean they're jerks if they benefit from this. It may be unintentional, or it may be PARTIALLY intentional (like they might not go out of their way to count all their hexes or icons and instead devote mental energy in other ways). But if you don't want them to play that way, don't reward that style of play.

It's basic economics: rules create incentives and incentives drive behavior. Ideally, do you want people to pay better attention to the special achievements and pick them up as soon as they have met the qualifying conditions? If so, then the rules (house rules or otherwise) should reward that kind of play.

I agree with your point about incentive, but not the rest of it.

If your preferred style of play were enforced, there would be numerous situations in which I would have been able to claim a special achievement due to my opponents' failures to do so in a timely fashion. By arguing in favor of "you snooze, you lose", you're advocating for a rule that specifically rewards me for being a jerk (or simply rewards any player who wants to win at any cost, which is why I think it would be suitable only in a tournament).

It cuts both ways. I'd much rather my opponent and I remind each other when and if we become eligible for a special achievement, because the actual rules as written do not make taking them optional. That doubles/triples/quadruples the number of people paying attention if you consider everyone at the table to be acting in good faith, and gives the best odds of the rules being enforced. Even if a player acts in bad faith, and deliberately (unconsciously, whatever) doesn't take an achievement, all it takes is someone to point out that they must, and your worst-case scenarios cannot occur and the rules are followed.
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Jeremy Moritz
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photocurio wrote:
This is the way the online game works. As soon as you meet the condition, special achievements are awarded to you by the game-state itself. The player's intention is not relevant.


Solid point. I was unaware that there was an online version, but it's certainly relevant if this is the way it's handled online.

Of course this doesn't solve the issue entirely though because there's no way to fully replicate this. For instance, I finished a game recently where we declared one person the winner, then as we were putting the game away, we realized there was an expansion special achievement that was PROBABLY met that would have handed the win to another player. It was confusing to know how this should be handled. Good thing no money was riding on the game!
 
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Jeremy Moritz
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Benkyo wrote:
If your preferred style of play were enforced, there would be numerous situations in which I would have been able to claim a special achievement due to my opponents' failures to do so in a timely fashion. By arguing in favor of "you snooze, you lose", you're advocating for a rule that specifically rewards me for being a jerk (or simply rewards any player who wants to win at any cost, which is why I think it would be suitable only in a tournament).


That's a very strong point. This kind of play could poison the well for some of those players.

Alternatively, you could play with a handicap since it sounds like you are the strongest player in your group. But I recognize that handicaps make this assumption explicit when sometimes, for relationship purposes, it's better to pretend it's not obvious who the strongest player is.

Benkyo wrote:
I'd much rather my opponent and I remind each other when and if we become eligible for a special achievement, because the actual rules as written do not make taking them optional. That doubles/triples/quadruples the number of people paying attention if you consider everyone at the table to be acting in good faith, and gives the best odds of the rules being enforced. Even if a player acts in bad faith, and deliberately (unconsciously, whatever) doesn't take an achievement, all it takes is someone to point out that they must, and your worst-case scenarios cannot occur and the rules are followed.


This, I must concede, is excellent logic. A compelling argument and well-articulated.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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This is really an ethical argument and one that will differ depending on group and play style.

Handle it the same way you would handle any other normal rules error detected at a late stage. There are many methods to solve it and none of them are right or wrong for everybody really. Feel free to pick what suits you. Examples include:
• Putting a theoretical (or physical if you write down results) asterisk against the result to indicate there possibly should have been a different winner.
• Roll back to the earlier point and restart play (or just accept the mistake and move on if too far back).
• Play another game to determine the result.
• Just be happy that you enjoyed the game, you're all winners if you had fun.
• Disband the game group in a fit of rage, tear up all the cards and never speak to each other again.

OK, perhaps that last one isn't right for anybody...
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