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Subject: X-Wing Miniatures Second Edition? Was there a problem with 1st edition? rss

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Paradox Games
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So first edition is no longer supported. I'm supposed to start over, collecting. Okay, you can still use your 1st edition kits. Just pay $50 additional per faction just so you can continue to use everything you bought so far! There are hundreds of cards and brand new maneuver dials! What's that you say? You have over a DOZEN TIE fighters, and at least 8 X-Wings, A-Wings, TIE Interceptors, etc? Well, you beter pick up several upgrades, then. Sorry, all the new ships won't be compatible with the first edition. And if you just joined the X-Wing community, now you get to start over. I like the way I play now. At least the new ships are more expensive.

It's okay, I guess. I love defunct game series.

What do you think?
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Kevin Guo
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I was wondering the same thing. I was thinking about getting into X-wing when I found out that a 2nd edition was coming out. I know that there is a channel on Youtube called Team Covenant that has a lot of videos regarding the 2nd edition of X-wing if any of you didn't already know.
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Trent Boardgamer
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Yer it is a bit of a hit for those of us that have large collections. That said, I don't play in any competitive leagues or the like, so for home use I can continue to stick with the 1st edition content. My understanding is that the new ships will include both edition support for the near future, so it's only an issue if you want to play against others using the new edition in regards of getting upgrade kits.

It is a little disappointing that the upgrade kits don't include enough supplies for some of the common numbers, like the tie swarms or x-wings most people would have. I'm also going to assume, like me a lot of people have ships from all three factions (or 5 if including the new movies factions), so it's not going to be a cheap upgrade for those that want to be able to use all their ships going forward.

All that aside the 2nd edition tweaks do look good, and I can't really see a way of introducing these enhancements without transitioning to a new edition. I'd always prefer a game is supported than abandoned or let slip into obscurity. so overall, in the longer term I see this as a positive decision.
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Jamie D
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Games Inflate over time and as you they grow over the course of time they learn from this. Also this inflation creates disbalance with earlier options sometimes render earlier options moots.

A 2nd edition that addresses these concerns are only good things.

Anytime a game shifts to a 2nd edition the cost of entry is high.

6 years is a bit early, but it’s FFG. They aren’t exactly known for keeping up with their products support-wise ( see armada ).

I’m not suprised, Games Workshop has been far tougher in newer editions.

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Kenny Felts
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Yes, 1st edition needed to go. The FAQ and errata had grown to enormous size but even with that the meta was exclusively the more recent waves meaning you couldn't play any Star Wars recognizable ships and hope to compete in the competitive scene.

If you don't like it, then continue playing 1st edition for as long as you like (and possibly buy 1st edition lots for cheap if you want more ships). If you want to play the new game, then buy the new core and a conversion kit per faction. You aren't entitled to a forever license for a game system. I am very happy for the move to 2nd edition.
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Paradox Games
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Are Resistance and First Order factions upgradable? I enjoy plying from that era and have many ships from the sequel trilogy era.

I, too, never play tournament and am thankful about that. And I didn't hear any word on the backwards-compatibility of 2nd edition models. If not, the options for 1e players would be 1) start from scratch or 2) spend hundreds of dollars to continue playing in 2e. There is a third option, and that's to move to Armada and start there. I actually had a lot of interest in playing a more strategic game than a tactical one, and it would actually be less expensive to start fresh on Armada than upgrade 1e X-Wing to 2e. This is ironic because I went to X-wing because I thought it would be more affordable than Armada. Again, I'd love to know what you think about the change.

Also, thank you, Kenny Felts, for giving an opinion that addressed the question in the thread title.
 
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Richard Dickson
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Plus the game had grown to a point where it became daunting for new players to get into. Besides, most miniatures games have rolled into second editions after a few years. X-Wing had a nearly six-year run in its original incarnation. That's a lot longer than some games.
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Paradox Games
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DailyRich wrote:
Plus the game had grown to a point where it became daunting for new players to get into.


To me it's still as easy as picking up a core set and playing. (I don't mean that to sound sarcastic. I truly think that.)
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Benjamine Allen
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I think it is a positive move for the game, and they did not have to offer conversion kits. I will probably only buy one of each, since realistically I tend not to fly more than 2 of a ship. The conversion basically cover if you bought one of every expansion. And the starter comes with two tie fighters. You can probably find pieces if conversion kits on eBay so you don’t have to buy whole sets for a ship or two you want to fly max amount of. I look at it this way, I have invested almost $2000 into this game, and for 190ish I can get current with be new edition, makes it super cheap in comparison to throwing my models away, and I had fun through the years and plan to still have fun, and I don’t play competitive very much. The new one seems much need as an overhaul and a way to balance the game better, and the app seems sweet from what I have heard. Only wave 14 has both cards for each edition. First order and resistance will probably have a conversion kit in the next wave for $30 for both I would guess since there are only 7 ships between both.
 
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Matt Brown
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This has been covered in the game's own forum here.
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Mike Jones
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Ill continue with what I have for 1st edition.
There was nothing wrong with it other then the typical power creep in any game like that, which 2nd edition will see to.

It's just a typical miniature game ploy to increase profit margins by making those that have slowed down buying to have something they have to spend money on.
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Chris Ferejohn
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Guantanamo wrote:
Ill continue with what I have for 1st edition.
There was nothing wrong with it other then the typical power creep in any game like that, which 2nd edition will see to.

It's just a typical miniature game ploy to increase profit margins by making those that have slowed down buying to have something they have to spend money on.


Yes, the typical "ploy" of identifying a product that people will buy and then creating it and selling it to them. Horrors.
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Pete
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Total money grab.

Pete (doesn't have a problem with that)
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Michael Dillenbeck
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plezercruz wrote:
Total money grab.

Pete (doesn't have a problem with that)


Agreed.

If you want to avoid it, look for rules-only miniature wargames.

When a vendor is manufacturing the rules and the minis? Well, its lightbulbs. You could build a lightbulb that last a very long time... but then all the lightbulb companies would go out of business by the time the old bulbs start to break, so how do you replace them?

In other words, all the answers here are part of the correct answer. It is done to rebalance. It is done to make the tournament scene easier to get into for new players. It is done because the company needs a new revenue stream, so periodic updates cause those with basically "completed" or "good enough" sets to re-invest.

I can't think of a single miniatures or collectible series that doesn't do this. Magic has new rules for its tournaments, with allowable tournament cards and systems of play changed to reinvigorate the game. Games Workshop constantly rebalances and redesigns their system, and there is outrage and anger when it happens (but they still seem to be making big wads of cash, so not that much outrage).

I think saying its "just giving the consumer that they want" is a naive and oversimplified viewpoint, while saying its only a cash grab is equally naive and oversimplified.

In the end, though, companies do only care about one thing - making their shareholders money. The US court system even had set a legal precedent for this.

As mentioned, you don't have to go to the new edition. Nothing is stopping the old edition from working and being playable, but it just won't be as popular (try to get someone to play the old CCG Jyhad or Babylon 5 with you and see what a dead community feels like). If the 1E community is strong enough, expect someone to make pnp conversion kits for 2E to 1E stuff.
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Isaac Shalev
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There are good reasons for FFG to go to a 2nd edition, and I imagine that pretty soon the secondary market will flood with unbundled upgrade kits too. But nothing should stop you from playing 1st ed. The plastic still works.
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Thanee
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Nicodimas wrote:
Anytime a game shifts to a 2nd edition the cost of entry is high.


How is $50 high?

Compared to the cost of a typical X-Wing collection, it is more than fair.

I really like the way they are doing this without making everyone to rebuy everything.

Bye
Thanee
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Steve
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Paradox Games wrote:
Are Resistance and First Order factions upgradable? I enjoy plying from that era and have many ships from the sequel trilogy era.

I, too, never play tournament and am thankful about that. And I didn't hear any word on the backwards-compatibility of 2nd edition models. If not, the options for 1e players would be 1) start from scratch or 2) spend hundreds of dollars to continue playing in 2e. There is a third option, and that's to move to Armada and start there. I actually had a lot of interest in playing a more strategic game than a tactical one, and it would actually be less expensive to start fresh on Armada than upgrade 1e X-Wing to 2e. This is ironic because I went to X-wing because I thought it would be more affordable than Armada. Again, I'd love to know what you think about the change.

Also, thank you, Kenny Felts, for giving an opinion that addressed the question in the thread title.

There's a 4th option: Just keep playing 1st edition.
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Paradox Games
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stevepop wrote:
Paradox Games wrote:
Are Resistance and First Order factions upgradable? I enjoy plying from that era and have many ships from the sequel trilogy era.

I, too, never play tournament and am thankful about that. And I didn't hear any word on the backwards-compatibility of 2nd edition models. If not, the options for 1e players would be 1) start from scratch or 2) spend hundreds of dollars to continue playing in 2e. There is a third option, and that's to move to Armada and start there. I actually had a lot of interest in playing a more strategic game than a tactical one, and it would actually be less expensive to start fresh on Armada than upgrade 1e X-Wing to 2e. This is ironic because I went to X-wing because I thought it would be more affordable than Armada. Again, I'd love to know what you think about the change.

Also, thank you, Kenny Felts, for giving an opinion that addressed the question in the thread title.

There's a 4th option: Just keep playing 1st edition.


That's my choice. All of it doesn't make the 1st edition unplayable. And I still enjoy 7th sea, and other defunct games.
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Edmund Proctor
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I have know some people who still played 2nd edition Warhammer 40k.

I say finnish off your 1st edition of X-Wing if you need to and start collecting something else.
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Ratimir Ismailobrat
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Ed123play wrote:
I have know some people who still played 2nd edition Warhammer 40k.


There are only two editions.
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Josh
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Preamble: I will be sticking with 1ED, I just have the one shuttle and another kimogila to pick up to be 'done'. I do believe there were some valid reasons for a 2Ead. At the same time I bekieve this 2ED is a cash grab because I don't think it really 'fixes' the core 'problem' for X-wing. It feels more like a bandaid before the whole thing collapses under its own weight.

Explanation: X-wing began its life as an easy entry game for Star Wars fans. Play was fairly simple with half a dozen ships. It made a solid parent-kid game as well. Over time though you need to keep cranking ships to keep cashflow going. Your casual audience splits between those who are good with just a few waves and those who keep buying the neat little ships. (Pewpew!) Where is your revenue stream, especially when you are a comlany well versed in LCG business models? Tourney play.

Tourney players buy ships, they buy ships *just for the cards* they are used to this. Anything for an edge. Caveat: Playing in a tourney doesn't make you a 'tourney player' it's a mindset. Over time design vues shifted to match this. This isn't inherently bad except for the space it ends up putting x-wing in due to its own unique attributes.

Disgression: One solid reasons for the 2ED is something FFG could have and should have just bit the bullet on a long time ago. 'Every expansion comes with all the rules and tokens you need apart from the core set.' Was a founding promise of X-wing and a sadly short sighted one. Saw's renegades comes with a 2 page booklet of rules that are all old hat if you've been playing the game at all. It comes with lock on tokens yy/zz. I have a gallon bag of tokens I don't even bother organizing because I already have plenty. This all leads to wasted production costs. Money lost to every pack on stuff 95% of your audience doesn't need. FFG should have done 'token boosters' a long time ago, as well as simply updating their core rulebooks between core printings and offering pdfs for us early adopters

Returning:Tourney minded games lead to power creap, or rotation(or both!) In a card based game rotating out prodict isn't terrible overall. A little stack of cardboard full of memories passing on out of circulation is something gamers have learned to digest. Now just image the T-65 being 'rotated out' HA! This means X-wing is an ever growing Katamari of ships hurtling towards the future. As a designer you have to somehow achieve balance, distinction, clarity, and creativity in this giant mass. Even with 1E itself I was hitting the point where new ships were just a 'slight tweak of the old and why do I need it?'(I am a completeist) 2E does nothing to fix this. It starts with all the 1E ships ready to play, and yet it *still needs to convince you to buy more*

The APP is an entry barrier but also I think something they needed to survive. FFG is dropping a fully realized game in new edition directly into a tourney scene. I can't think of anyone else masochistic enough to have attemlted that yet. Even GW of the liquid rules churns its army books out over years! If you think the 1E faq is bad. I fully expect eratta, points adjustmentz, and compatibility retcons as the FFG design posse has the inevitable 'oh my god they did what with our rules???!!' Phase over the next 6 months. The APP makes this pain easier but it is still just adressing the symptom, not the disease. You will still end up with a huge array of ships all vying for a reason to exist in a competitive sphere, aimed at a playerbase for whom efficacy is a touchstone, yet needing to sell new product consistantly over time to make your income.

I don't know how it remains sustainable. I hope it does, but I just don't see how.
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AJ Cooper
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FFG knows the market. Their core customer is people who will autobuy everything they put out. That's who they cater to. People who won't buy the 2nd edition stuff probably weren't buying much more 1st edition stuff anyway.
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Mike Jones
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Shadrach wrote:
...The APP is an entry barrier but also I think something they needed to survive...


Hadn't even looked much into 2ed. Missed the APP thing, so I can't even go to 2Ed if I wanted to.

So, that solves that decision for me
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Kenny Felts
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An app is not required. A pdf with point costs and upgrade slots will be available on the website so you can print that off to play. Don't spread falsehoods.
 
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Anon Y. Mous
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The outrage about 2E is exclusively from people that don't play it. Basically everyone that does recognizes it was necessary for the health of the meta in the long run.
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