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Pontifex Maximus
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So much for easing fears of a trade war

Quote:
President Donald Trump on Sunday issued new threats against America’s trade partners, calling for them to remove trade barriers and tariffs, or face the consequences.

“The United States is insisting that all countries that have placed artificial Trade Barriers and Tariffs on goods going into their country, remove those Barriers & Tariffs or be met with more than Reciprocity by the U.S.A. Trade must be fair and no longer a one way street!” Trump said in a tweet.

Trump has already warned China that the U.S. will seek additional tit-for-tat tariffs on Chinese exports if China slaps retaliatory tariffs of its own on U.S. exports. Sunday’s message may indicate a similar stance toward the European Union.


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trumps-latest-threat-to-us...

Here is said tweet in all its original glory



Topping off this continued threats against China, folks are beginning to believe we are heading for a trade war. Dow is down about 400 points so far today

https://www.google.com/search?q=dow+jones+friday&oq=dow+jone...

Who knew that electing a mentally unstable lying bigot would be so problematic
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Harmonica
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It's like someone with a moustache fighting a war on many fronts.

Regarding China ... Go ahead, Donald!
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Andre
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Kumitedad wrote:


Who knew that electing a mentally unstable lying bigot would be so problematic


I think alot of people knew, laughs, they just voted for him anyway.

Trump, the kindergartener, wagging his finger at the big boys in the school yard. "Give me what I want, or else". Of course, the story ends when the big boys give him a wedgie, and throw him into the back alley at the playground.
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Wait, what? Didn’t Trump START this tariff war? And now, he threatens the nations who retaliated? I am so confused.
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Daniel Kearns
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I'm not an economist but I'm pretty sure that trade is always a two-way street.
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Pontifex Maximus
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dkearns wrote:
I'm not an economist but I'm pretty sure that trade is always a two-way street.


So are Trade Wars

 
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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desertfox2004 wrote:
Wait, what? Didn’t Trump START this tariff war? And now, he threatens the nations who retaliated? I am so confused.


Not really, no. My understanding is that Europe and China and most countries have had trade tariffs in place for decades now. For whatever reason we had reached an equilibrium where the tariffs in place were not being questioned by the US or anyone else.

Trump took that as a starting point and then started questioning them in the most undiplomatic way possible, ignoring any context in which they might have made any sense, and upping the ante at every turn.

So in a way, yes. But we weren't necessarily the first ones to impose tariffs in all of these cases.
 
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ejmowrer wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
Wait, what? Didn’t Trump START this tariff war? And now, he threatens the nations who retaliated? I am so confused.


Not really, no. My understanding is that Europe and China and most countries have had trade tariffs in place for decades now. For whatever reason we had reached an equilibrium where the tariffs in place were not being questioned by the US or anyone else.

Trump took that as a starting point and then started questioning them in the most undiplomatic way possible, ignoring any context in which they might have made any sense, and upping the ante at every turn.

So in a way, yes. But we weren't necessarily the first ones to impose tariffs in all of these cases.


Tariffs go back centuries. But in recent decades they have (overall) been very low.
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I would let other countries set our trade policy.

Whatever their highest tariff on our goods going their way will be applied to all goods from their country.

 
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ejmowrer wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
Wait, what? Didn’t Trump START this tariff war? And now, he threatens the nations who retaliated? I am so confused.


Not really, no. My understanding is that Europe and China and most countries have had trade tariffs in place for decades now. For whatever reason we had reached an equilibrium where the tariffs in place were not being questioned by the US or anyone else.


Yep but also the US has tariffs on some things. For example Obama put up tariffs tremendously on Chinese solar panels due to believing the Chinese were dumping them on the outside market at below cost. Obama also introduced high tariffs on Chinese tires - which was probably more a punitive tariff.

But some goods are totally banned in the US for no sensible reason - such as Kinder Surprise eggs, real haggis, black pudding, and Mirabelle plums.
 
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Man.. He's holding a gun to his head while standing on a ledge saying, "Backoff or I'll shoot".

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qzhdad wrote:
I would let other countries set our trade policy.

Whatever their highest tariff on our goods going their way will be applied to all goods from their country.



That's a terrible policy when we are selling $50 billion dollars worth of product to them and they are selling ~$100 million dollars (maybe less) worth of product to us. Which is the case for automobiles.

And it's even more terrible when we are selling running a trade surplus with them. (ala Canada).
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qzhdad wrote:
I would let other countries set our trade policy.

Whatever their highest tariff on our goods going their way will be applied to all goods from their country.



Well, from an accelerationist perspective that's certainly one effective way to hasten the demise of the world's remaining superpower.
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andyl wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
Wait, what? Didn’t Trump START this tariff war? And now, he threatens the nations who retaliated? I am so confused.


Not really, no. My understanding is that Europe and China and most countries have had trade tariffs in place for decades now. For whatever reason we had reached an equilibrium where the tariffs in place were not being questioned by the US or anyone else.


Yep but also the US has tariffs on some things. For example Obama put up tariffs tremendously on Chinese solar panels due to believing the Chinese were dumping them on the outside market at below cost. Obama also introduced high tariffs on Chinese tires - which was probably more a punitive tariff.

But some goods are totally banned in the US for no sensible reason - such as Kinder Surprise eggs, real haggis, black pudding, and Mirabelle plums.


Chinese now consume more solar power than they manufacture.
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Pontifex Maximus
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andyl wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
desertfox2004 wrote:
Wait, what? Didn’t Trump START this tariff war? And now, he threatens the nations who retaliated? I am so confused.


Not really, no. My understanding is that Europe and China and most countries have had trade tariffs in place for decades now. For whatever reason we had reached an equilibrium where the tariffs in place were not being questioned by the US or anyone else.


Yep but also the US has tariffs on some things. For example Obama put up tariffs tremendously on Chinese solar panels due to believing the Chinese were dumping them on the outside market at below cost. Obama also introduced high tariffs on Chinese tires - which was probably more a punitive tariff.

But some goods are totally banned in the US for no sensible reason - such as Kinder Surprise eggs, real haggis, black pudding, and Mirabelle plums.


And yet we still have access to Marmite. Funny that.
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qzhdad wrote:
I would let other countries set our trade policy.

Whatever their highest tariff on our goods going their way will be applied to all goods from their country.



That isn't a good way to do trade. It's up there with 'Flat Tax' in terms of overly simplistic bad ideas.
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qzhdad wrote:
I would let other countries set our trade policy.

Whatever their highest tariff on our goods going their way will be applied to all goods from their country.


Have you thought this through?
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qzhdad wrote:
I would let other countries set our trade policy.

Whatever their highest tariff on our goods going their way will be applied to all goods from their country.



ah, yes, the "whining child" school of trade theory
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Scott Russell
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Liberals (and conservatives) always want to complicate things so that they can choose who to reward and who to punish.

Personally, I really like the idea of all people being equal and treated the same by the government.

What's the downside of my proposal, if someone wants to sell here, they have to let us sell there. What is the argument for tariffs and protected markets? How do they help the average citizen? It can only make things more expensive for the end consumer.
 
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err maybe because we don't shitty american clorine washed chicken at any price?
 
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growlley wrote:
err maybe because we don't shitty american clorine washed chicken at any price?


Then don't buy it? If no one over there wants it, there'd be no need to ban it, would there?
 
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ah but that's the point -yourwhinning about being excluded from the market ,then your whinning about having to lable it as 'clorine washed' shit so the consumer has the ability to know what shit it is and not buy it.

The same with your steroid and growth hormone riddled beef. You want to sell stuff here its our house our rules. We follow yours in your market.

Not our fault your consumer rights are shit and consist of bending over and being shafted.
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Bill Cook
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qzhdad wrote:
What's the downside of my proposal, if someone wants to sell here, they have to let us sell there. What is the argument for tariffs and protected markets? How do they help the average citizen? It can only make things more expensive for the end consumer.


The super-short version is that we feel it is important to have a thriving industry in certain products, lest we be over reliant on other countries. Nobody wants to live in a country that, for instance, gets all their food from another country that could use the threat of cutting off that food as a weapon.
 
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qzhdad wrote:


What's the downside of my proposal, if someone wants to sell here, they have to let us sell there.


The main one is that it demands that other governments ignore domestic politics and essentially do nothing for any industries. It also treats a complex problem (free trade) as though it's much simpler than it is, by boiling it down to a single measure (tariffs).

On the first point, almost every democracy has some protected small industry. Wisconsin Senators trade their votes for cheese protection; other countries have their entrenched interests. A policy that sets every tariff by the highest one amounts to, "Get your domestic politics in line or we'll blow up trade over something insignificant," which we wouldn't like if it were done to us.

On the second point, tariffs are just one way that trade is distorted. We subsidize our farmers and then ask the world for free trade for produce; if we make tariffs the measure we'll presumably get lower tariffs but that won't mean we don't face other barriers.

Like most complex issues there are ways to simplify it, but only so far. At the end of the day we need to sit down and negotiate. Our trade situation with the EU and with Canada are both pretty good; we could legitimately complain about some things and so could they, but neither of us is taking advantage of the other. China is a different story, and a true negotiator could potentially have mobilized the rest of the world to push China towards reform. At the moment, that seems largely out the window, and the risk of an actual trade war is growing. (At this point it's only a risk; Trump has a history of backing down when people stand up to him, and pretty much everyone is standing up to him en masse, so I think the odds are he caves...but he may also figure that he's gone so far that he can't back down.)

Quote:
What is the argument for tariffs and protected markets? How do they help the average citizen? It can only make things more expensive for the end consumer.


Overall, tariffs are terrible for everyone. Free trade benefits both nations, but trade does create winners and losers as well. Brexit and Trump were both fueled by the people who are or who see themselves as the losers in globalization. They may end up even worse off if they get what they want, but that isn't how it feels now.
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qzhdad wrote:
I would let other countries set our trade policy.

Whatever their highest tariff on our goods going their way will be applied to all goods from their country.



Not a big fan of negotiation, are you?
 
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