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Trickerion: Legends of Illusion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Performance question rss

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Lee Stoneman
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I set up all of my tricks on one card for a big Sunday performance. My opponent then places a single trick on this card with a Thursday performance.

He performs first and...what? He gets to perform all of my tricks on Thursday leaving me and my Manager with nothing to do on Sunday? How does this work thematically and how does it score?
 
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Emanuela
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A performance is a show, not a single performer, so in this case, you'd be a guest performer and your opponent is headlining.

You still get points for your Tricks, except your opponent gets Performing bonuses--Links bonus, Specialist bonus, and the Performance card bonus. It does mean your Manager goes to waste, but that's on you for taking the risk of choosing a Sunday performance. (Sunday is better used as a "prepping day" for the next round.)

Edit: And you get the Sunday bonus, like Matthew said.
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Matthew Mayes
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The Thursday performer gets to choose what card to perform, so if for example there is only one card that has trick markers on it, he would surely choose to perform that one. He will receive linking bonuses, and performance bonuses. You, as a guest performer will still receive your trick yields, which are shown on your trick cards, and you will get the yield modifier for being on the Sunday slot, you will not receive any additional bonuses however. All trick markers are then removed from the performance card.

Then if there are no other performers on Friday or Saturday, you will have the opportunity to perform one of the other performance cards if they have one of your trick markers on it. So it can be a good strategy to try and ensure you have trick markers on multiple performance cards.

I hope that answers your question. It makes for a really interesting decision! Do you want the negative yield modifier on thursday but get first choice of performance cards, or do you want Sunday's modifier but last choice of performance cards.
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Lee Stoneman
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Ok, this is kind of what I thought but it doesn't make a lot of thematic sense. Does a performance thematically happen on Sunday? What does my magician actually perform if there no cards left with tricks?
 
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Emanuela
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I'm sure a performance can be whenever you want in real life, so it's not un-thematic. (I can't think of a reason why Sunday would absolutely never be a performance day.) Your magician always performs your tricks, whether you are headlining or the guest performer.
 
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Chris Ruf
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LeeJS wrote:
I set up all of my tricks on one card for a big Sunday performance. My opponent then places a single trick on this card with a Thursday performance.

He performs first and...what? He gets to perform all of my tricks on Thursday leaving me and my Manager with nothing to do on Sunday? How does this work thematically and how does it score?


Are you more irritated by the thematic break, or the fact that you didn't plan well?
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Désirée Greverud
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I'm curious as to what you thought would happen if only one performance card had tricks but 2 magicians were in the theater.

You aren't putting tricks on cards to perform on a certain day, you are prepping those tricks in that theater to be performed... whenever that card is selected. Each performance card represents a single show at a specific theater. The magician performing first, chooses which show to perform first.

If you need a thematic explanation, try this.

Each theater wants to put on the best show they can. That means they don't care who performs or if multiple people perform in the same show. They are most concerned with having a show that flows. The deal they have with the magicians is that you can set up your tricks in advance but you must come perform in a show when any magician decides to headline a show there using the preplanned performance card.

You have a bunch of tricks ready to go at The Grand Magorium. You pick Sunday to perform a show. People assume you must be a great and popular magician to warrant a Sunday performance. Another magician sets up a trick at the same theater and thematically links his trick to yours. He decides to perform that entire show on Thursday as the headliner with you as a guest. You come and perform all your tricks that are set up at the theater as his guest and you get a bonus because people think you are more important, being a Sunday performer.

However, you've used up your set up tricks at that theater and now need to have a different show prepared for your Sunday headling show. Oops, no show prepared? you have to cancel and no one comes to see you do anything.

But yeah, smart move by your opponent and bad planning on your part.
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Matthew Mayes
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LeeJS wrote:
Ok, this is kind of what I thought but it doesn't make a lot of thematic sense. Does a performance thematically happen on Sunday? What does my magician actually perform if there no cards left with tricks?


Thematically speaking it sounds like your magician had planned on performing on Sunday but found that you didn’t have the staff to pull off the show your audience deserves so instead you decided to do a guest performance on Thursday. The audience enjoyed the show, you gained experience, fame and enough money to put together a headlining show in the near future.
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Adrian Schmidt
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EPratt wrote:
A performance is a show, not a single performer, so in this case, you'd be a guest performer and your opponent is headlining.

You still get points for your Tricks, except your opponent gets Performing bonuses--Links bonus, Specialist bonus, and the Performance card bonus. It does mean your Manager goes to waste, but that's on you for taking the risk of choosing a Sunday performance. (Sunday is better used as a "prepping day" for the next round.)

Edit: And you get the Sunday bonus, like Matthew said.


The parenthesis makes no sense Emanuela… I think you confused Sunday and Thursday here? Sunday is the best day to perform, but it's also the riskiest day, precisely for the reason the OP discovered.

Thursday is the worst day to perform, since you get pretty harshly punished by the negative modifier. But it's by far the best day to use if you want to set up a lot of tricks, since each backstage spot gives you +1 AP.

EPratt wrote:
I'm sure a performance can be whenever you want in real life, so it's not un-thematic. (I can't think of a reason why Sunday would absolutely never be a performance day.) Your magician always performs your tricks, whether you are headlining or the guest performer.


I think I'll have to side with Lee in that the system of setting up different shows and then being able to choose which show to perform later on, possibly being able to snag a show under the nose of a competitor, even though they are performing loads more tricks in it, isn't all that realistic. But for me, it doesn't have to be. The game is solid mechanically, and while I absolutely love to have deep thematic integration in a game (something which Mindclash is really good at), for me, solid game mechanisms are a more important priority.

DragonsDream wrote:
I'm curious as to what you thought would happen if only one performance card had tricks but 2 magicians were in the theater.

You aren't putting tricks on cards to perform on a certain day, you are prepping those tricks in that theater to be performed... whenever that card is selected. Each performance card represents a single show at a specific theater. The magician performing first, chooses which show to perform first.

If you need a thematic explanation, try this.

Each theater wants to put on the best show they can. That means they don't care who performs or if multiple people perform in the same show. They are most concerned with having a show that flows. The deal they have with the magicians is that you can set up your tricks in advance but you must come perform in a show when any magician decides to headline a show there using the preplanned performance card.

You have a bunch of tricks ready to go at The Grand Magorium. You pick Sunday to perform a show. People assume you must be a great and popular magician to warrant a Sunday performance. Another magician sets up a trick at the same theater and thematically links his trick to yours. He decides to perform that entire show on Thursday as the headliner with you as a guest. You come and perform all your tricks that are set up at the theater as his guest and you get a bonus because people think you are more important, being a Sunday performer.

However, you've used up your set up tricks at that theater and now need to have a different show prepared for your Sunday headling show. Oops, no show prepared? you have to cancel and no one comes to see you do anything.

But yeah, smart move by your opponent and bad planning on your part.


Wow, I really didn't think anyone would be able to pull off even a semi-reasonable thematic explanation of this particular mechanism, but I have to say: you impress once again Désirée

(By the way, I got burnt by exactly the same sneaky move as the OP in the last performance when I played with my sister's fiancée a few weeks back. Adding his extra gain and my lost points, that move was worth about 10 points. What could I do but congratulate him? (I still won the game though…))
 
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Lee Stoneman
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Legend5555 wrote:
LeeJS wrote:
I set up all of my tricks on one card for a big Sunday performance. My opponent then places a single trick on this card with a Thursday performance.

He performs first and...what? He gets to perform all of my tricks on Thursday leaving me and my Manager with nothing to do on Sunday? How does this work thematically and how does it score?


Are you more irritated by the thematic break, or the fact that you didn't plan well?


Well, since this is a hypothetical question asked as a learning exercise, no, not really. I have my first game on Thursday where I will be teaching and I want to be able to answer the inevitable questions about how that makes sense, particularly since the rules don't make it that clear.
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Dizz
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Has anyone mentioned yet that you can have tricks prepared on multiple cards?
So if you put all your eggs in one basket (tricks on one card), you better be performing early in the week. If you have tricks on several different cards, you can perform later in the week and be sure to have something to perform.
Thematically, if it's Sunday and you don't have a set to perform that hasn't been done this week, it's nobody's fault but your own. There is no show and you wasted your time.

SpecularRain, between you and EPratt, you both are arguing "worst" from a different perspective. Really, it all depends on what you're trying to do... but considering OP's complaint, then it is true that Sunday is bad when you want to perform your trick without anyone cramping your style.
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Désirée Greverud
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SpecularRain wrote:


DragonsDream wrote:


If you need a thematic explanation, try this.

Each theater wants to put on the best show they can. That means they don't care who performs or if multiple people perform in the same show. They are most concerned with having a show that flows. The deal they have with the magicians is that you can set up your tricks in advance but you must come perform in a show when any magician decides to headline a show there using the preplanned performance card.

You have a bunch of tricks ready to go at The Grand Magorium. You pick Sunday to perform a show. People assume you must be a great and popular magician to warrant a Sunday performance. Another magician sets up a trick at the same theater and thematically links his trick to yours. He decides to perform that entire show on Thursday as the headliner with you as a guest. You come and perform all your tricks that are set up at the theater as his guest and you get a bonus because people think you are more important, being a Sunday performer.

However, you've used up your set up tricks at that theater and now need to have a different show prepared for your Sunday headling show. Oops, no show prepared? you have to cancel and no one comes to see you do anything.


Wow, I really didn't think anyone would be able to pull off even a semi-reasonable thematic explanation of this particular mechanism, but I have to say: you impress once again Désirée

well, it's a stretch and relies on buying into the idea that theaters, not magicians are in charge of the shows overall but the magicians decide which show to perform and on which day. But I suppose in a world where there are lots of magicians, the theaters would have some power to arrange shows they way they wanted and magicians would agree in order to get an audience.
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Adrian Schmidt
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DragonsDream wrote:
SpecularRain wrote:


DragonsDream wrote:
[…]


Wow, I really didn't think anyone would be able to pull off even a semi-reasonable thematic explanation of this particular mechanism, but I have to say: you impress once again Désirée

well, it's a stretch and relies on buying into the idea that theaters, not magicians are in charge of the shows overall but the magicians decide which show to perform and on which day. But I suppose in a world where there are lots of magicians, the theaters would have some power to arrange shows they way they wanted and magicians would agree in order to get an audience.


Yes, it's a stretch, but still way better than I expected could be done!
 
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Emanuela
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SpecularRain wrote:
The parenthesis makes no sense Emanuela… I think you confused Sunday and Thursday here? Sunday is the best day to perform, but it's also the riskiest day, precisely for the reason the OP discovered.

Thursday is the worst day to perform, since you get pretty harshly punished by the negative modifier. But it's by far the best day to use if you want to set up a lot of tricks, since each backstage spot gives you +1 AP.

Oh, snap. I did. I blame my husband for convincing me otherwise.

SpecularRain wrote:
I think I'll have to side with Lee in that the system of setting up different shows and then being able to choose which show to perform later on, possibly being able to snag a show under the nose of a competitor, even though they are performing loads more tricks in it, isn't all that realistic. But for me, it doesn't have to be.


Totally agreed about the system. I was only addressing whether the day of the week the Magician wanted to perform was un-thematic:
LeeJS wrote:
Does a performance thematically happen on Sunday?

I should've quoted the part I was referring to.
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Désirée Greverud
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as a aside:
did anyone else chuckle at the thread title when they first saw it?
 
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Game Guy
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DragonsDream wrote:
as a aside:
did anyone else chuckle at the thread title when they first saw it?


I wanted to chuckle but I couldn't get it up....

Quite aside from the issue of whether the Set Up Tricks/Performance dichotomy is thematically sensible, it does lead to a very strong strategy. I won my last game (by a lot...) mainly by going to the theater on Thursday to set up tricks but not perform. Using my Magician and the Specialists, I spammed my tricks onto as many cards as I could with an eye toward dominating the link/crystal bonuses. Then, the next week, I would send my Magician to perform on Sunday. Having spammed my tricks onto various cards, I did not have the OP's problem of being shut out of a show to perform. I got to set up my tricks on the most advantageous day and then got to perform two of them on the most advantageous day. Since my tricks pay off regardless of who performs them, I lose nothing when someone else performs them. I still got the Sunday show with any attendant Card and Link bonuses for myself so the fact that other players got Card and Link bonuses for performing their shows is not so sad for me! Best of all, with my Tricks on almost every card I can count on getting paid off in cash and points even on the weeks when I do not perform. Even if my opponents collude to perform all my tricks so I do not get a performance (tough to do since I want my specialists backstage when I do perform so I can set up at least two more tricks from the Sunday Backstage slots), they are basically colluding to give me points and money (and Crystals, lovely, lovely Crystals) on their turns.
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Matthew Mayes
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Unless they perform your tricks on the same turn you set them up on Thursday, which would give you a negative yield. As you play with more experienced players it becomes harder to take advantage of the strategy you stated. Still, it’s definitely worth shooting for if you can get it done.
 
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Game Guy
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A fair point. It also helped that we were playing with the Magician's Powers expansion and I drew the one crystal card which yields 2 Fame and 3 Money for each week in which I did not perform.
 
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Derek Fearnley
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The magician power that you're referring to is Gig:

If you do not perform, nor participate in a Performance this turn, you receive 2 and 3 1db.

Note that the way that you're playing, you will still participate in a Performance most turns and you won't get the 2 and 3 1db. If you're spamming the theatres every second turn, it's highly likely that one of your tricks gets performed. In fact, your opponents will know you have Gig and they will (should) choose a theatre with one of your tricks that gives you a smaller payout than Gig. And since you plan to be in the theatre on Thursday, this will be easy since your tricks will suffer the penalty.
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Julian Loh

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For me the performing phase of Trickerion is probably the least thematic part.

To rationalize the idea that even though you printed out flyers to promote your Sunday performance, but because by some measure of 'good planning' of another magician you have to cancel your show.

Think of the conversation:

"Hey I'm having a show this Thursday, and I think our acts compliments each others. You wanna come and perform with me? Of course I'd take most of the credit cause its my show, but its up to you.

Oh wait you have no choice in this matter; this specific venue have only enough electricity for a night of performance and it needs a week to charge, and this town only have same n-numbered of people who frequent the same venue every weekend - but they only go once a week. Well too bad then, guess you have no choice but to perform with me. Cause this town ain't big enough for both of us."

With that said, I usually don't frame the performing part as "Day" when I teach, but rather turn order of performance instead. Because when I phrase it as a "Day" it implies that the actions are mutually exclusive, hence the confusion.

"But I planned it for Sunday, now you're saying because he/she performed on Thursday - I can't do mine?" exclamations tends to happened.

Ever since I start teaching it as "Turn order" - not much debacle on this since.
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Dizz
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That's a really interesting take. I've never considered explaining it regarding power and time or whatever.
I look at it like supply and demand. People only want to see shows on the weekend, and they don't want to see the same stuff performed on the same weekend. I don't think I have ever had to over-explain that either. It has been intuitive for most of the people I play with.
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