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Gaslands» Forums » Rules

Subject: tbone or tailgate or what? rss

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Donald Thadeus Ramer
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Let's say car X slides in to the back of car Z, such that the side of car X hits the back of the car Z.

If I'm not mistaken this would be considered both a t-bone and a tailgate according to the their definitions?

Which is it? Did I miss something?
 
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Bill H
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dtramer wrote:
Let's say car X slides in to the back of car Z, such that the side of car X hits the back of the car Z.

If I'm not mistaken this would be considered both a t-bone and a tailgate according to the their definitions?

Which is it? Did I miss something?


Since both could be applied in this case, I'd go with the Rule of Carnage
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Scott Clinton
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dtramer wrote:
Let's say car X slides in to the back of car Z, such that the side of car X hits the back of the car Z.

If I'm not mistaken this would be considered both a t-bone and a tailgate according to the their definitions?

Which is it? Did I miss something?


This is all determined via p. 19

The rules on "Orientation" on p 19 indicate various definitions and all are predicated on determining the "Front", "Side" and "Rear" of the vehicle in the collision. IMO, this is not static and should NOT be determined by the location of front bumper on a 99 cent toy regardless of the direction of travel.

If your gaming group wishes to consider the front bumper of the toy as ALWAYS "The Front" and use that as defined on p19 then you have a gray area (at the minimum). You can of course resolve this by "Rule of Carnage", but IMO, the fact this is required should be a hint something is amiss in this interp. and I have to say I see people pull that one out awful fast when rules discussions come up for this game...

If however your gaming group uses reality and the note about driving in reverse (same page, p19) as a guide and instead treats the leading edge of the model car when it moves as its front and thus the back when in reverse and the side when in a slide, etc... The game rules work perfectly and make sense. This is simple, obvious, based upon momentum-reality and just works.

For example: If you treat the front bumper as "The Front" then this as a T-Bone ignoring the direction of travel the sliding car can cause a collision even when it is traveling slower than the car it hits from behind. This is obviously impossible and contrary to another rule on the very same page. This can also be extended to the use of extra dice for damage, etc. which are all out of context with the reality of momentum as well as other rules in the game.

IMO, direction of travel determines the "Front" and "Rear" of a vehicle as any other determination causes lots of problems is very gamey and serves no useful purpose at all that I can see unless you cannot figure out the direction of travel in this game in which case you are going to have other, much larger issues anyway (IMO of course ).
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Mike Hutchinson
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dtramer wrote:
Let's say car X slides in to the back of car Z, such that the side of car X hits the back of the car Z.

If I'm not mistaken this would be considered both a t-bone and a tailgate according to the their definitions?

Which is it? Did I miss something?


You apply the Rule Of Carnage and it's a t-bone.
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Scott Clinton
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crikeymiles wrote:
dtramer wrote:
Let's say car X slides in to the back of car Z, such that the side of car X hits the back of the car Z.

If I'm not mistaken this would be considered both a t-bone and a tailgate according to the their definitions?

Which is it? Did I miss something?


You apply the Rule Of Carnage and it's a t-bone.


So, in this case, the slower car can impact the faster car from *behind*; even when he moves later in the turn? ..and I guess you use the speed of the car sliding sideways, from behind...at a slower speed ignoring the fact it could never catch the other car...

Ah, no. Not in the games I am running. Sorry.


The "Front" of an object is *not* defined when it is manufactured in regards to how the term is used in the rules. "Front" in the rules is strictly related to motion and direction of travel. To dumb it down to front bumper is always front is (IMO) silly and entirely unnecessary unless you cannot tell direction of travel and in that case you are most likely playing the wrong game anyway.

...and I must be honest I see this cop out of "Rule of Carnage" a bit much for these rules to "justify" the unjustifiable and entirely irrational just because somebody wants "more".
 
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D Conklin
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Grumbling Grognard wrote:
crikeymiles wrote:
dtramer wrote:
Let's say car X slides in to the back of car Z, such that the side of car X hits the back of the car Z.

If I'm not mistaken this would be considered both a t-bone and a tailgate according to the their definitions?

Which is it? Did I miss something?


You apply the Rule Of Carnage and it's a t-bone.


So, in this case, the slower car can impact the faster car from *behind*; even when he moves later in the turn? ..and I guess you use the speed of the car sliding sideways, from behind...at a slower speed ignoring the fact it could never catch the other car...

Ah, no. Not in the games I am running. Sorry.


The "Front" of an object is *not* defined when it is manufactured in regards to how the term is used in the rules. "Front" in the rules is strictly related to motion and direction of travel. To dumb it down to front bumper is always front is (IMO) silly and entirely unnecessary unless you cannot tell direction of travel and in that case you are most likely playing the wrong game anyway.

...and I must be honest I see this cop out of "Rule of Carnage" a bit much for these rules to "justify" the unjustifiable and entirely irrational just because somebody wants "more".


Ah, yes. Since crikeymiles is the game designer, I'll take his word for it.

This games is designed for fun, not simulation.

I don't see "Rule of Carnage" as a cop out...I see it as a really cool gaming philosophy and it's one of the things I love about this rule set!

That said, feel free to houserule away if something is not to your liking.
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Donald Thadeus Ramer
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Grumbling Grognard wrote:
IMO, direction of travel determines the "Front" and "Rear" of a vehicle


I'll probably go with this, specifically for sliding into a collision, unless Mike updates the errata or someone explains why Scott's suggestion might be problematic. I think I'll find it intuitive enough to actually remember.

I also agree with Scott that the rule of Carnage seems to be applied too quickly (specifically I'm thinking in the forums). I think the rule of Carnage is great when actually playing the game in order to not interrupt the momentum of play.
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Mike Hutchinson
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Grumbling Grognard wrote:
crikeymiles wrote:
dtramer wrote:
Let's say car X slides in to the back of car Z, such that the side of car X hits the back of the car Z.

If I'm not mistaken this would be considered both a t-bone and a tailgate according to the their definitions?

Which is it? Did I miss something?


You apply the Rule Of Carnage and it's a t-bone.


So, in this case, the slower car can impact the faster car from *behind*; even when he moves later in the turn? ..and I guess you use the speed of the car sliding sideways, from behind...at a slower speed ignoring the fact it could never catch the other car...

Ah, no. Not in the games I am running. Sorry. :)


It's an abstraction, and I'm happy if you choose to play it that it's a tailgate. The abstractions exist to avoid having to define all the possible scenarios, (lord knows the "final position" rules are messy enough on their own!)

Grumbling Grognard wrote:
To dumb it down to front bumper is always front is (IMO) silly and entirely unnecessary unless you cannot tell direction of travel.


And there's the rub. There is no concept of "direction of travel" in the Gaslands rules. You can apply some common sense in most cases, but they'll be edge cases where it's not clear (because of slides, or spins, or flips, or because someone is being piledrivered or what-have-you). You have to abstract somewhere, we just happened to find during playtesting that the clearest abstraction was the physical location of the impact on the toy car.

There's a rule on Page 19 that says:

"If the active vehicle moved in reverse during this activation then treat the rear-edge of the active vehicle as the front-edge for the purposes of determining collision orientation."

So I'm slightly lying about there not being any concept of "direction of travel" in practice.

100% on board with: your table, your rules though! My only interest is that you have the most fun with the game. :)
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Donald Thadeus Ramer
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It's also not clear to me how T-Bone is more damage then tailgate.

Let's say the car in front is gear one and the car behind is gear 4.

Then if it's a T-bone, one car rolls four attack Dice and the other rolls one attack die with a total of 5 attack die between the two.

If it's a tailgate, then they both could roll three dice each, with a total of 6 attack dice.

If that's not correct then, and this is very likely, I'm not understanding how attacks work.
 
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Scott Clinton
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crikeymiles wrote:


And there's the rub. There is no concept of "direction of travel" in the Gaslands rules. You can apply some common sense in most cases, but they'll be edge cases where it's not clear (because of slides, or spins, or flips, or because someone is being piledrivered or what-have-you). You have to abstract somewhere, we just happened to find during playtesting that the clearest abstraction was the physical location of the impact on the toy car.

There's a rule on Page 19 that says:

"If the active vehicle moved in reverse during this activation then treat the rear-edge of the active vehicle as the front-edge for the purposes of determining collision orientation."

So I'm slightly lying about there not being any concept of "direction of travel" in practice.


It is just a game, but I don't agree. I do not think there are *ANY* cases where the moving vehicles "Direction of Travel" at the time of impact is ever in doubt (esp. given the examples you list above)

There is the single already listed exception for reverse as we both note above only.

IMHO - with the small change to the rule(s) to define the Front of a vehicle as the leading edge during it's movement phase if that is different than the "physical front" of the miniature; THEN no exceptions (for reverse or otherwise) or anti-intuitive interpretations are required.

Just my over-valued two cents.

 
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Scott Clinton
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dtramer wrote:
It's also not clear to me how T-Bone is more damage then tailgate.

Let's say the car in front is gear one and the car behind is gear 4.

Then if it's a T-bone, one car rolls four attack Dice and the other rolls one attack die with a total of 5 attack die between the two.

If it's a tailgate, then they both could roll three dice each, with a total of 6 attack dice.

If that's not correct then, and this is very likely, I'm not understanding how attacks work.


P20, "Calculating Attack Dice" (2nd sentence) "...each participant calculates their attack dice separtely, counting themselves as the attacker..."

Then, using the table from the same section:

In the tailgate rear car rolls 3 dice and front car rolls none.

In the T-Bone rear car rolls 4 dice and the front car rolls 1.
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Donald Thadeus Ramer
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Grumbling Grognard wrote:
dtramer wrote:
It's also not clear to me how T-Bone is more damage then tailgate.

Let's say the car in front is gear one and the car behind is gear 4.

Then if it's a T-bone, one car rolls four attack Dice and the other rolls one attack die with a total of 5 attack die between the two.

If it's a tailgate, then they both could roll three dice each, with a total of 6 attack dice.

If that's not correct then, and this is very likely, I'm not understanding how attacks work.


P20, "Calculating Attack Dice" (2nd sentence) "...each participant calculates their attack dice separtely, counting themselves as the attacker..."

Then, using the table from the same section:

In the tailgate rear car rolls 3 dice and front car rolls none.

In the T-Bone rear car rolls 4 dice and the front car rolls 1.


The tailgate attack dice method has been updated in the FAQ:
https://gaslands.com/downloads/Gaslands-FAQ.pdf

Tailgate:
Faster participant’s current gear minus
the slower participant’s current gear
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Donald Thadeus Ramer
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dtramer wrote:
Grumbling Grognard wrote:
dtramer wrote:
It's also not clear to me how T-Bone is more damage then tailgate.

Let's say the car in front is gear one and the car behind is gear 4.

Then if it's a T-bone, one car rolls four attack Dice and the other rolls one attack die with a total of 5 attack die between the two.

If it's a tailgate, then they both could roll three dice each, with a total of 6 attack dice.

If that's not correct then, and this is very likely, I'm not understanding how attacks work.


P20, "Calculating Attack Dice" (2nd sentence) "...each participant calculates their attack dice separtely, counting themselves as the attacker..."

Then, using the table from the same section:

In the tailgate rear car rolls 3 dice and front car rolls none.

In the T-Bone rear car rolls 4 dice and the front car rolls 1.


The tailgate attack dice method has been updated in the FAQ:
https://gaslands.com/downloads/Gaslands-FAQ.pdf

Tailgate:
Faster participant’s current gear minus
the slower participant’s current gear


So for tailgate, if I'm understanding the FAQ/errata, both of the cars roll 3 attack dics, giving 6 attack dice in total. And so the rule of carnage would say it is a tailgate, I guess.
 
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Scott Clinton
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dtramer wrote:
So for tailgate, if I'm understanding the FAQ/errata, both of the cars roll 3 attack dics, giving 6 attack dice in total. And so the rule of carnage would say it is a tailgate, I guess.


Yes, the rules have been changed (to make it easier?).

Now, all things being equal, all collisions that are either "Head On" or "Tailgate" (only) will result in both cars rolling the exact same number of dice.

Whereas "T-Bones/Sideswipes" will remain the same and thus many times will result in the vehicles rolling differing numbers of attack dice (even when all other factors are equal).

whistle
 
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Donald Thadeus Ramer
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If the car in front is in gear 1 and the car in back is in gear 3, then:

If it is a Tbone, then 1 car rolls 1 die, and the other car rolls 3 dice:
Total 4 attack dice.

If it is a tailgate, then both cars roll 3-1 dice = 2 dice:
Total 4 attack dice.

So rule of maximum carnage does not answer this, as in both cases there are the same number of attack dice.

Can I get a better answer please?
 
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Dave Graffam
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dtramer wrote:
If the car in front is in gear 1 and the car in back is in gear 3, then:

If it is a Tbone, then 1 car rolls 1 die, and the other car rolls 3 dice:
Total 4 attack dice.

If it is a tailgate, then both cars roll 3-1 dice = 2 dice:
Total 4 attack dice.

So rule of maximum carnage does not answer this, as in both cases there are the same number of attack dice.

Can I get a better answer please?


I suggest that if all other things are equal, the player controlling the active vehicle should choose the orientation of a collision. It's reasonable to assume that the active vehicle's controller will choose the option they feel is most likely to cause pain/inconvenience to the other vehicle, satisfying the Rule of Carnage.
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Scott Clinton
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DagobahDave wrote:
I suggest that if all other things are equal, the player controlling the active vehicle should choose the orientation of a collision. It's reasonable to assume that the active vehicle's controller will choose the option they feel is most likely to cause pain/inconvenience to the other vehicle, satisfying the Rule of Carnage.


The type of collision is either a Tailgate or Sideswipe/T-Bone and which type is entirely determined by the orientation of the vehicles.

The type of collision should never be a choice.

...and again one of the first ideas is to ignore the rules and invoke the "Rule of Carnage" to change a game mechanic to advantage the attacker; and this is done in the cold reality of sitting around our PC just talking about rules with zero time pressure. The "Rule of Carnage" is not there to trump everything else, it is there as a last resort for rules debates during play. shake

I can only imagine how the rules will be shredded DURING PLAY, when 3 people are talking at once and 2 more are impatiently waiting to get their turn and some clever dick who wants to get their turn already shouts "Rule of Carnage" ...and nobody wants to look it up...
 
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dtramer wrote:
If the car in front is in gear 1 and the car in back is in gear 3, then:

If it is a Tbone, then 1 car rolls 1 die, and the other car rolls 3 dice:
Total 4 attack dice.

If it is a tailgate, then both cars roll 3-1 dice = 2 dice:
Total 4 attack dice.


As this discussion is all about orientation trying to differentiate the vehicles by "in front" and "in back" is very confusing. I will assume you mean stationary vehicle by "In Front" and active/moving vehicle in "Back".

According to the FAQ...

Gaslands FAQ wrote:
Tailgate (use) Faster participant’s current gear minus the slower participant’s current gear

T-Bone & Sideswipe (use) Attacker’s current gear


So, in this case for a Tailgate both will roll 2 dice on their individual attacks.

For a Sideswipe each vehicle rolls their current gear either 3 or 1 die on their attacks.


dtramer wrote:
So rule of maximum carnage does not answer this, as in both cases there are the same number of attack dice.

Can I get a better answer please?


What was the question that the "Rule of Carnage" was to resolve?
 
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Dave Graffam
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Grumbling Grognard wrote:
The "Rule of Carnage" is not there to trump everything else, it is there as a last resort for rules debates during play.


I was responding to a question of last resort, assuming that the orientation of the collision is unclear to all players.
 
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Donald Thadeus Ramer
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Grumbling Grognard wrote:
What was the question that the "Rule of Carnage" was to resolve?


Let me try again. From my original post:

dtramer wrote:
Let's say car X slides in to the back of car Z, such that the side of car X hits the back of the car Z.

If I'm not mistaken this would be considered both a t-bone and a tailgate according to the their definitions?

Which is it? Did I miss something?


Mike replied back:
crikeymiles wrote:
You apply the Rule Of Carnage and it's a t-bone.



This is what I should have replied with:

If car X is in gear 1 and car Z in gear 3, then:

If it is a Tbone, then car X rolls 1 die, and the car Z rolls 3 dice:
Total 4 attack dice.

If it is a tailgate, then both cars roll 3-1 dice = 2 dice:
Total 4 attack dice.

So rule of maximum carnage does not answer this, as in both cases there are the same number of attack dice (though they are distributed differently).

Can I get a better answer please?
 
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Scott Clinton
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I see now; you are applying algebra to determine the "maximum carnage" as this is (of course) all that matters and is the "Prime Directive of Gaslands"

Well, I weighted in on this way, way up at the top in both the ruling and the leaning on "Maximum Carnage" to determine...everything shake

But again:

IMO: It is silly to even attempt to model a collision between a slower object hitting a faster object from behind as it is (literally) not possible and that is handled quite quickly and cleanly in the rules for tailgates already.

The author weighted in with a definitive answer because it seems some people seem to have difficulty determining direction of motion/travel for their toy cars during the movement portion of the gear phase. This "ruling" is that basically the front of a car will always represent the front (as stated in the rules) when moving regardless of direction of travel (ie. Slides, Wipeouts)...well except when your are in reverse,..as that has a separate exception entirely.

I disagreed. I will simply use direction of travel and the single, one line addition to the rules I already stated above that makes this entire discussion moot:

Grumbling Grognard wrote:
 ...the small change to the rule(s) to define the Front of a vehicle as the leading edge during it's movement phase if that is different than the "physical front" of the miniature; THEN no exceptions (for reverse or otherwise) or anti-intuitive interpretations are required.
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Donald Thadeus Ramer
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Grumbling Grognard wrote:

I disagreed. I will simply use direction of travel and the single, one line addition to the rules I already stated above that makes this entire discussion moot:


I agree and will do the same. My question was actually a roundabout way of making it clear that the rule of maximum carnage doesn't actually work to answer the original rules question.
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