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Subject: Am I missing something...? rss

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Just reading the rules for the solo/co-op campaign, I don't quite see where any strategy can come into play. The creatures will always play a card that you can't see. So what could your strategy be based on?

Thanks for any clarification.

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Justin
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As you play, you'll learn the general cards fairly quickly since you'll use them for most battles. Then it's just a matter of learning the creatures. You'll never know for sure what their first play is going to be, but eventually, you can plan ahead for certain cards to come out. This emulates learning the ropes of the land pretty well.
 
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joestin wrote:
As you play, you'll learn the general cards fairly quickly since you'll use them for most battles. Then it's just a matter of learning the creatures. You'll never know for sure what their first play is going to be, but eventually, you can plan ahead for certain cards to come out. This emulates learning the ropes of the land pretty well.


Right, I see. But then it's a strategy game only insofar as it's a memory game too, right?

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Wretched Git wrote:
joestin wrote:
As you play, you'll learn the general cards fairly quickly since you'll use them for most battles. Then it's just a matter of learning the creatures. You'll never know for sure what their first play is going to be, but eventually, you can plan ahead for certain cards to come out. This emulates learning the ropes of the land pretty well.


Right, I see. But then it's a strategy game only insofar as it's a memory game too, right?



It's a strategy game in terms of how you are going to approach defeating a creature, especially once you understand that creature's skills and begin anticipating them.

There are a variety of options available to you in how you want to maximize DMG output (archetype abilities, anima abilities, items, elements and signature spells) and avoid taking it with maximum efficiency.

 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Wretched Git wrote:
joestin wrote:
As you play, you'll learn the general cards fairly quickly since you'll use them for most battles. Then it's just a matter of learning the creatures. You'll never know for sure what their first play is going to be, but eventually, you can plan ahead for certain cards to come out. This emulates learning the ropes of the land pretty well.


Right, I see. But then it's a strategy game only insofar as it's a memory game too, right?



Yes. Sadly.
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rattkin wrote:
Wretched Git wrote:
joestin wrote:
As you play, you'll learn the general cards fairly quickly since you'll use them for most battles. Then it's just a matter of learning the creatures. You'll never know for sure what their first play is going to be, but eventually, you can plan ahead for certain cards to come out. This emulates learning the ropes of the land pretty well.


Right, I see. But then it's a strategy game only insofar as it's a memory game too, right?



Yes. Sadly.


No. I understand if you don't get the strategy, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. This is far from just a memory game. I'm certain that when I play, I'm better at it than someone else, not just because I know the creatures, but because of how and when I use my spells/items/abilities, and how I traverse the chapter.

Whether you know what the monster is doing or not, you're still able to decide how you're going to play your elements and maximize your EP efficiency. How you approach fights in the first place also matters. Did you stock up on items at the Goblin Grotto? Did you level up via landmarks and events to get better stats and unlock new signature spells? What signature spells are you picking and how are you going to best use them? What sort of spell/item combos are you coordinating from turn to turn in a duel?

Stuff like that.
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ssgibson wrote:

No. I understand if you don't get the strategy, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. This is far from just a memory game. I'm certain that when I play, I'm better at it than someone else, not just because I know the creatures, but because of how and when I use my spells/items/abilities, and how I traverse the chapter.

Whether you know what the monster is doing or not, you're still able to decide how you're going to play your elements and maximize your EP efficiency. How you approach fights in the first place also matters. Did you stock up on items at the Goblin Grotto? Did you level up via landmarks and events to get better stats and unlock new signature spells? What signature spells are you picking and how are you going to best use them? What sort of spell/item combos are you coordinating from turn to turn in a duel?

Stuff like that.


Yes. I mean, I understand if you don't see it, it's your child and all, but just because there are choices in the game, doesn't mean that the choices are interesting. You're confusing the RPG element of the game with the actual gameplay.

In GS one just pack some stats to get more hp/ep/cards, then pick the strongest-overall signature spells, stack some items if you can, then you play random duels and hope for the best, while performing cumbersome 3 stack management/recycling. Or you learn the duel cards by heart and then calculate your chances. Whatever you do or won't do, duel can be the end of it, no matter how prepared you were.

Stuff like that.
 
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Wretched Git wrote:
joestin wrote:
As you play, you'll learn the general cards fairly quickly since you'll use them for most battles. Then it's just a matter of learning the creatures. You'll never know for sure what their first play is going to be, but eventually, you can plan ahead for certain cards to come out. This emulates learning the ropes of the land pretty well.


Right, I see. But then it's a strategy game only insofar as it's a memory game too, right?



I don't know that I can say much better than the designer, but yeah, I suppose you could say that. I don't find it a problem as there is still plenty of opportunity to plan how you maintain your hand. There are also tactical decisions as you go through a fight. Timing when to reload, defend, be aggressive, etc. Is all part of the decision space.
 
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I also think you have to accept that this game will sometimes squash even the best laid plans. This doesn't bother me because I enjoy the gameplay and theme, but I can see that bothering others.
 
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rattkin wrote:
ssgibson wrote:

No. I understand if you don't get the strategy, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. This is far from just a memory game. I'm certain that when I play, I'm better at it than someone else, not just because I know the creatures, but because of how and when I use my spells/items/abilities, and how I traverse the chapter.

Whether you know what the monster is doing or not, you're still able to decide how you're going to play your elements and maximize your EP efficiency. How you approach fights in the first place also matters. Did you stock up on items at the Goblin Grotto? Did you level up via landmarks and events to get better stats and unlock new signature spells? What signature spells are you picking and how are you going to best use them? What sort of spell/item combos are you coordinating from turn to turn in a duel?

Stuff like that.


Yes. I mean, I understand if you don't see it, it's your child and all, but just because there are choices in the game, doesn't mean that the choices are interesting. You're confusing the RPG element of the game with the actual gameplay.

In GS one just pack some stats to get more hp/ep/cards, then pick the strongest-overall signature spells, stack some items if you can, then you play random duels and hope for the best, while performing cumbersome 3 stack management/recycling. Or you learn the duel cards by heart and then calculate your chances. Whatever you do or won't do, duel can be the end of it, no matter how prepared you were.

Stuff like that.


I'm saying that not because it's my child, but because I've logged way more hours in it than you, and have a much deeper understanding of all the options.

It's not a *deep* strategy game, but there are definitely better combinations of items/spells/skills to use in different situations.

It's fine if you don't like how the game works. But, I do not agree that there is no strategy or interesting choices as a fact. That's just your opinion about it.
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ssgibson wrote:
rattkin wrote:
ssgibson wrote:

No. I understand if you don't get the strategy, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. This is far from just a memory game. I'm certain that when I play, I'm better at it than someone else, not just because I know the creatures, but because of how and when I use my spells/items/abilities, and how I traverse the chapter.

Whether you know what the monster is doing or not, you're still able to decide how you're going to play your elements and maximize your EP efficiency. How you approach fights in the first place also matters. Did you stock up on items at the Goblin Grotto? Did you level up via landmarks and events to get better stats and unlock new signature spells? What signature spells are you picking and how are you going to best use them? What sort of spell/item combos are you coordinating from turn to turn in a duel?

Stuff like that.


Yes. I mean, I understand if you don't see it, it's your child and all, but just because there are choices in the game, doesn't mean that the choices are interesting. You're confusing the RPG element of the game with the actual gameplay.

In GS one just pack some stats to get more hp/ep/cards, then pick the strongest-overall signature spells, stack some items if you can, then you play random duels and hope for the best, while performing cumbersome 3 stack management/recycling. Or you learn the duel cards by heart and then calculate your chances. Whatever you do or won't do, duel can be the end of it, no matter how prepared you were.

Stuff like that.


I'm saying that not because it's my child, but because I've logged way more hours in it than you, and have a much deeper understanding of all the options.

It's not a *deep* strategy game, but there are definitely better combinations of items/spells/skills to use in different situations.


Re-posting this from another thread to show some of the strats involved with each thing, and their various situations of usefulness:


What items you should take are entirely dependent on your play style, but if I were to recommend some I'd go with: Revive Juju, Witchcrafted Rifle, Bullwhip, Sorcerer's Sidearm, Arcane Handcannon, Prosthetic Pistol, Arcane Bow.

You'll get the most use out of those because you can use them several times, or they'll help you the most in a clutch situation. Most items are a one-and-done kind of situation.

I'll explain why I listed each item:

Bullwhip: This has a very low "RN" and can be re-used. Most creatures have attacks that are very low RN, so you'll want to try and match theirs or beat it.

Arcane Handcannon: While this item has a very high RN, it does good DMG and can be re-used. It combines with your elemental spells so you'll do good DMG + the elemental FX.

Arcane Bow: While this item does very little DMG, it has the lowest RN you'll find on a weapon. It's like, guaranteed to not be interrupted by a creature's attack. Combine it with Lightning for the best outcome. Fire and Ice are ok to use it with as well.

Prosthetic Pistol: This weapon is nice because it lets you choose between two different FX once all cards have been revealed, and those two FX have different RN. If you need your RN to be lower, use the pistol FX, if you don't need your RN to be lower, use the Prosthetic FX for max DMG.

Witchcrafted Rifle: It's not amazing, but it does decent DMG and gets you EP back. Use it when you want to reactivate your deactivated cards next turn.

Sorcerer's Sidearm: Has a good RN and lets you choose the effect once all the cards have been revealed, which is always nice. It's most effective when you're using it to reduce a creature's EP (and remember, if a creature run's out of EP, it dies).

Revive Juju: This one is pretty basic, it lets you revive if you're HP reaches 0, which early on in the game might be an issue, but it's best saved for the end-of-chapter boss fights when defeat = game over.

Transmute: This would be my #1. It's almost always useful. But, you should ONLY use it when you know, or are pretty sure, a creature is going to hit you with DMG. Also, only use it when you need HP or EP.

A lot of dueling creature's is about learning their attacks and anticipating them. This will take some time (or you can just read through their cards before you play).

Exalt: If you're playing co-op, Exalt is pretty clutch. Save it for when you think a creature is about to obliterate you or a friend. But keep in mind, it costs 1 EP per player you make immune, including yourself. It's RN isn't super low, but it's pretty low. Combined with a celerity shroom to make it's RN 1, it's very powerful.

Pierce: This spell has a very low RN, and its damage cannot be negated in anyway. It's perfect for finishing off a creature, expescially if you boost it's DMG with a card or by "surging" with your Anima.

Evert: This spells *must* be coordinated with a teammate so it doesn't screw everything up. It's makes damage done heal instead, and healing done to damage. If you think a creature is about to heal itself, Evert is amazing. If you think a creature is about to do damage to you, Evert is amazing. I'd recommend that, if you're going to throw out Evert, your teammate should "pass" that turn to gain EP and not mess with Evert's effect. Evert also has an RN of 2, so it's almost never going to be interrupted.

Foresight: This spell is probably one of the best ones in the whole bunch. It costs a lot of EP, but it guarantees things will go your way that turn. Basically, it lets you see what the creature played, and choose a new card accordingly.

Rejuvenate: EP is king, and you'll need as much as you can get. Rejuvenate costs no EP to use, and gets you a lot of EP back. It's not an exciting spell, but it is useful.

Hush: Basically a guaranteed interrupt of the creature's attack that turn. Costs no EP so it's something you can always use no matter your state. It's very clutch. If you ARE going to use it, make sure your teammate passes that turn instead of playing a card. (passing gets you 2 EP back). It WILL interrupt your teammates card if they play it, unless they have an RN of 1.

Magnify: This one actually kind of works like Foresight, except its super slow so easily interruptible, but it makes the new spell you replace Magnify with get +1 NV (makes it stronger). IF you combine it with Foresight, it's a pretty impressive combo (just costs a lot of EP though).

Bloodlust: How to use this one properly is not obvious, but it is the most powerful signature in the game in regards to damage output. Basically, anticipate when you're going to take damage from a creature and then play it. Use Foresight with it if you want to guarantee it's effect. I.e. play Foresight, if you're going to take DMG, then play Bloodlust. The trick is making sure you're going to take DMG, and then making sure you can DO damage the next turn.

A combo like this would be very effective: Foresight > Bloodlust > Surge > Arcane Bow + Lightning.

OR another combo is this: Teammate plays exalt, you play Bloodlust, then next turn Surge > Arcane Bow + Lightning.

Exalt is good because it blocks all DMG done to you, but Bloodlust still works even if DMG is blocked.

 
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ssgibson wrote:
Whether you know what the monster is doing or not, you're still able to decide how you're going to play your elements and maximize your EP efficiency. How you approach fights in the first place also matters. Did you stock up on items at the Goblin Grotto? Did you level up via landmarks and events to get better stats and unlock new signature spells? What signature spells are you picking and how are you going to best use them? What sort of spell/item combos are you coordinating from turn to turn in a duel?


Yes, I can see that. I don't want to come to any conclusion before I've played more. I can see the fun and interest in building and stacking your deck in that way. And I can see how it could be cool to just get a general idea of what each creature does without having to necessarily "memorize" anything, and then deploy your cards based on that knowledge. But until I get confident in those creatures' dispositions, I'm a little hesitant to dive into a game where I'm stacking a deck as efficiently as possible, and then just watching random fate decide whether it does well or not. But I might just be too impatient.

 
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