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Subject: Scenario goal: Kill X amount of enemies rss

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Mike C
United Kingdom
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In a nail-biting finish to the scenario, an enemy killed himself by running over a trap, resulting in a total of X enemy deaths. Is the scenario over or have we not met the requirements as the suicide does not count as a kill?
 
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Graeme
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For a scenario goal, you've succeeded. If it was personal goal to kill that type of enemy, the death doesn't count as you didn't kill them.

A kill is a kill, if you're just looking at numbers. If you're looking at how owns the kill, then that's when you need to look at how they died.
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Blaine Hewett
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Rambib wrote:
In a nail-biting finish to the scenario, an enemy killed himself by running over a trap, resulting in a total of X enemy deaths. Is the scenario over or have we not met the requirements as the suicide does not count as a kill?


Scenario is completed, any enemy that dies is killed, for scenario completion kill credit doesn't matter, only that enough enemies were killed, even enemies killing each other from certain class abilities counts towards this end.
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Mad Mullet
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Rambib wrote:
In a nail-biting finish to the scenario, an enemy killed himself by running over a trap, resulting in a total of X enemy deaths. Is the scenario over or have we not met the requirements as the suicide does not count as a kill?


I see that you've already had two answers to this saying something different but, if a scenario requirement is to 'kill x amount of enemies', that would imply that the players need to get the kills. If a suicidal monster kills himself, I wouldn't count that towards the goal because the players haven't achieved that kill.

Maybe there's a FAQ somewhere that says I am wrong (since the other two posters have said something different) and if there is, please post the link.
 
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Mike C
United Kingdom
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Thanks guys, glad we won!

Spoiler (click to reveal)
thematically the suicide side made sense, i'd just jumped into an inox nursery over some traps after probably butchering their parents (I don't want to be that guy!), so can understand the panicked rush after me.


This game is fantastic, started playing with my brother (who I normally don't see a lot of), takes us back to when we were kids playing games workshop, shame I have to wait two weeks for the next instalment.
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Mike C
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At the time I thought this might be the case, so played on thinking I'd lost the game, but took a short rest and with my last play landed a killing hit and survived till the end of the round. So either way I'm covered.

Could have finished the game earlier but greedily sprinted for a treasure chest (and was trying to hit 13 xp for a battle goal), when I got pinned by an archer, thought I'd cost us the game. I'd already made by brother mad for costing us a previous scenario!
 
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eldur
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Madmullet wrote:
Maybe there's a FAQ somewhere that says I am wrong (since the other two posters have said something different) and if there is, please post the link.

I applaud your extra caution here. There are a number of common English words used throughout the rules that have very particular meaning in the GH rule-set. I believe the extra caution is not needed in this case.

Thinking back, I don't recall any threads in the last year or so that mention or even distinguish in any way how a monster dies, when "kill" is part of the scenario goals. (Not that I read everything, much less memorized it, but I would have expected to run across it in my travels.)
Also, encouraging clever use of traps like the OP did is part of the cool design of the game. It would be odd if kills made in that way did not then count towards scenario completion.
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eldur
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Rambib wrote:
Thanks guys, glad we won!

Congrats!

Rambib wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
thematically the suicide side made sense, i'd just jumped into an inox nursery over some traps after probably butchering their parents (I don't want to be that guy!), so can understand the panicked rush after me.

Thematically...
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I read that as you have butchered their parents and are faced with the last few adults making their final stand. The children aren't actually figures (ie, not killable). They are in the background, busy being scarred for life and forming their origin stories for when they come back to hunt down their parents' murderers.
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Mike C
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It was more luck tbh,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I had no idea there would be traps the other side of the room I revealed but had two movement from my jump leftover, so managed to clear them as I burst through the door!
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Throknor
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eldingar wrote:
Madmullet wrote:
Maybe there's a FAQ somewhere that says I am wrong (since the other two posters have said something different) and if there is, please post the link.

I applaud your extra caution here. There are a number of common English words used throughout the rules that have very particular meaning in the GH rule-set. I believe the extra caution is not needed in this case.

Thinking back, I don't recall any threads in the last year or so that mention or even distinguish in any way how a monster dies, when "kill" is part of the scenario goals. (Not that I read everything, much less memorized it, but I would have expected to run across it in my travels.)
Also, encouraging clever use of traps like the OP did is part of the cool design of the game. It would be odd if kills made in that way did not then count towards scenario completion.


In a scenario I just played, we needed to kill 4*C -> max of 16. I think there were maybe 20-22 total of the required type that could spawn. I'd hate to think we'd have lost if we killed too many with traps or wounds - neither of which count toward personal goals.
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Thelon Con

Indiana
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Madmullet wrote:
Rambib wrote:
In a nail-biting finish to the scenario, an enemy killed himself by running over a trap, resulting in a total of X enemy deaths. Is the scenario over or have we not met the requirements as the suicide does not count as a kill?


I see that you've already had two answers to this saying something different but, if a scenario requirement is to 'kill x amount of enemies', that would imply that the players need to get the kills. If a suicidal monster kills himself, I wouldn't count that towards the goal because the players haven't achieved that kill.

Maybe there's a FAQ somewhere that says I am wrong (since the other two posters have said something different) and if there is, please post the link.


Let's flip this a bit. If a scenario goal is "kill all enemies" or "kill a boss" and a single monster or boss kills itself via a trap, would you redo the entire scenario because nobody could credit the kill? Of course not.

It is the same verb used in the "kill x enemies" so for consistency sake, there is no reason to change the meaning of "kill" in the context of the "x many killed" to be different from the "kill all" or "kill boss."
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Mad Mullet
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I was playing devil's advocate really though I don't think I would count a 'monster walking into trap' suicide as a kill. It would feel a bit cheap to count it as 1 of 15.

I guess the difference between this and 'Kill a Boss' is that, in that case, a boss-suicide renders the scenario auto-failed. In an 'enemy-spawns-every-round' scenario, this clearly isn't the case.

Hypothetically, if you had a personal goal that was 'Kill x of certain type of enemy' and you are the only non-exhausted player left when one of this 'type of enemy' kills itself on a trap, would you count it towards a personal goal?

Anyway, it's all by the by. General consensus is that it counts so congrats to the OP!

Enjoy your Gloomhaven journey!
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Jay Johnson
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Madmullet wrote:
I was playing devil's advocate really though I don't think I would count a 'monster walking into trap' suicide as a kill. It would feel a bit cheap to count it as 1 of 15.

Monsters don't just walk into traps willy nilly. Generally it takes some amount of strategic planning/positioning to get a monster to walk into a trap. So I don't see how that is any "cheaper" than pushing a monster into a trap to kill it.
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Graeme
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Madmullet wrote:
Hypothetically, if you had a personal goal that was 'Kill x of certain type of enemy' and you are the only non-exhausted player left when one of this 'type of enemy' kills itself on a trap, would you count it towards a personal goal?

The short answer is no.

The FAQs cover the details of who 'owns' a kill because of the personal goals.

FAQs wrote:
Kill Credit

If an enemy dies from trap damage, who gets credit for the kill?
The credit goes to whomever causes the trap to be sprung, not whomever who made it. If the enemy moves onto a trap on its own, no one would get the credit.

If an enemy dies from WOUND, who gets credit for the kill?
No one.

Who gets credit for a mind controlled monster's kills?

No one

Who gets credit for a mind controlled ally's kills?
The ally
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Mad Mullet
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CrashTestDummy wrote:

The FAQs cover the details of who 'owns' a kill because of the personal goals.

FAQs wrote:
Kill Credit

If an enemy dies from trap damage, who gets credit for the kill?
The credit goes to whomever causes the trap to be sprung, not whomever who made it. If the enemy moves onto a trap on its own, no one would get the credit.

If an enemy dies from WOUND, who gets credit for the kill?
No one.

Who gets credit for a mind controlled monster's kills?

No one

Who gets credit for a mind controlled ally's kills?
The ally


Yup. Hence my query about whether the player should get 'credit' for a kill in a 'kill 15 enemies scenario' when a monster kills itself on a trap. As you say, 'if the enemy moves onto a trap on its own, no one would get the credit'.

That's the basis of my initial post that, as I say, was really just to put forward an alternate view in the absence of anything definitive in the FAQ (with respect to this specific scenario-goal).

To argue against my original posting, whilst I would not count a 'monster moves on to trap' scenario as a counted kill, I suspect I would count a 'mind-controlled monster kill' (as it would be caused by an action during a player's turn).

I suspect I might also be more inclined to count a 'wound' slow-death as a 'counted kill' too provided that the original wound was caused by a player-attack.

In the OP example, perhaps he could argue that his clever movement 'caused' the monster to kill itself and, hence, it should count. I could probably buy into that more than, for example, some bandit archer laying a trap and then walking into it next move.

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Arthur Janicek
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Or maybe the monster schleps into the trap just so you don't succeed in the scenario.

devil
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Graeme
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Just remember that there's a difference between a kill and a kill credit. If the scenario goal is to kill, then the death of an enemy meets that requirement. The manner of their death isn't important.

However, there are personal goals that require a kill credit, and that's what that FAQ is about.

If you like, think of it this way:

The party gets the credit for all enemy deaths, but individuals can only claim the credit if they directly cause that death. This leaves some deaths as credited to the party (for the scenario goal) but can't be credited to any individual character (for their personal goal).
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