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Subject: Potential content for an expansion rss

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Mark Johnson
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When this expansion hits KS, please include a bigger box that will hold all content. Game Trayz insert wouldn't hurt either
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Juma Al-JouJou
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Quote:
I really dig this one! What about the neighbouring bonus for opponents? Can they buy better/more goods from an hex that contains these special workers+ a regoular meeple?

No.

Quote:
This feels to much "helping the worst player" eheh..

I disagree. Having less units on the map often means you rely more on trading. And it rewards slaughtering


Quote:
It would be quite difficult to exploit it in round 1 anyway, as it requires an opportunist neighbourhood bonus

I dont think it would be so difficult, you just put yourself close to a player like McKenzie or Campbell and then you most certainly will have this opportunity. Plus, if it happens, the game is more or less over in a competitive game. But taking only 3 merchants back should be fine.

Quote:
- take 3 contract tiles from draw pile, you may choose one paying normal cost and discard others (already existing but not on contracts)

That is exactly the building bonus I mentioned
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James Patterson
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Innovatormentor wrote:


Quote:
This feels to much "helping the worst player" eheh..

I disagree. Having less units on the map often means you rely more on trading. And it rewards slaughtering


Have to agree with this. In my last 2p game as Stewart, I only had 3 miners (upgraded), a cheese house, and a distillery on the board at the end. I was using merchants to purchase wheat and, after I slaughtered my cows, milk. I was able to fulfill 5 meat contracts before the scoring tile triggered. My son was playing MacKenzie and deployed a ton of stuff, but I edged him out in final scoring, especially because I held all the imported sugar. I knew I had no chance on settlement scoring, so I worked to make sure I had the most fulfilled contracts. I used my merchants a lot, and it paid off. You don't have to cover the board to win.
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CLAN POWERS:

1) "Nomad" Clan:


Like this idea, kind of seems like a land version of the Macdonald clan. Would the movement only be once per round?

2) Glory Clan

I like this one too, it's simple but gives another avenue to victory outside of contract scoring. The balancing would be the trick with this one, 8 pounds seems quite reasonable.I feel there is definitely a bit more of a luck element with this clan as the scoring tiles can be quite diverse at times!

3) Goods Clan:

I like this, admittedly not the most flashy clan in the game but once again I think it takes the focus off the contracts a little bit. I think it also encourages a bit more market speculation which would be great in a 2 player game. It would be interesting to see how it playtests... a Goods clan vs factories clan would make for a very busy map!

4) Highly-Skilled Clan

An interesting one, I take it that there'd have to be some sort of marker to indicate which workers are special. I like the idea though. Does it just apply to factories or can it be used on basic goods units (including wheat)?

5) Animal Clan:

This one is a winner, simple to understand and it brings sheep into the game a bit more.

6) Canal Clan:

Hmm not sure about this one. I think it's an interesting idea but the ease of settlement scoring worries me with this one... From teaching the game I think that the settlement scoring is the most difficult rule to grasp, so I'm not sure if it might add too much complexity. I like the idea of being able to divide my settlements with a canal though!

7) Railroad Clan:

Wow! I really like the concept behind this one, the theme is really cool.
Just a couple things, I think I'd prefer a fixed cost for the railway deployment, or perhaps a staggered reduction in cost depending on how many miners you have deployed. The distance rule feels like it could get a bit confusing at times. Also perhaps the water crossings could be limited just to rivers? That way shipping reach remains important and there are only 2 costs to keep track of: land placement and river placement.

I really like the Neighbouring bonus element, very thematic and unique. What if the VP bonus was tied to the use of the neighbouring bonus at the end of the game, i.e. VPs for everytime you "transported" something along your railroad? Just a thought.

Would the railroad be tiles, or Catan style roads?

PORT TILES:

1)
When you fulfill a contract that requires processed goods, you can pay with any processed goods.


A good one, rewards clever starting placement.

2)
-2 Upgrades
OR flip back 1 tech tile
+ 1 processed good
+ 2 basic goods


I really like this one, unlike the other port tiles it really offers something at the end of the game. I would've used this many times in the last round just to get that extra contract!

3)
You can reserve a hex space for yourself by putting a specific marker on it. If you expand on it later (you need to be able to reach it), you do not pay the terrain cost. No other player can expand on it. (alternatively a small VP penalty if the player does not expand on it to avoid screwage)


Don't like this one as much, blocking for the sake of blocking just seems a little bit nasty to me... blush It also feels like something else I'd need to remember. I struggle to get my settlements up and running as it is!

4)
Take back 4 merchants from the market into your stock (next to your player board).


Yep, a definite. Another good end of game bonus, perhaps tweaked as discussed previously in this thread.

SCORING TILES

1)
2 VP per unit in your biggest settlement.


A good one. Sort of like the 5-6 tile score tile it leads to some interesting decision making.

2)
2 VP per different type of unit on the map (8 types)


I like this one too, encourages interesting decisions.

3)Receive 2 glory for each unit of the import goods you have most of.

Not 100% sure, would be interested to see how this playtests, kind of encourages players to pursue a one import good strategy.

*On that note it might be interesting if there was a clan or bonus tile that impacted an import good value... just a thought!

ADDITIONAL FINAL SCORING TILES

These could give 12 and 6 VP to the two best players:

1) Least units on the map

2) Most goods in stock (processed goods count twice).
3) Most glory


I must admit I'm not really a big fan of these. One of my favourite things about Clans of Caledonia is that it encourages so many tactical decisions throughout the game as opposed to the overall strategic decisions found in so many other games. You really need to think on your feet. One round you want to get workers on the board to maximise the round scoring tile, the next minute you're trying to get meat contracts. I love this part of the game.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think final scoring tiles might just take a little bit of that tactical decision making away. But, I do think they'd be worth including in an expansion as they could be included or left out quite easily.

TERRAIN TILES
1) Bridge on Loch hex:
A loch hex, with a bridge connecting 2 sides. The two land spaces connected through the bridge are considered neighboring.


Interesting idea, would this be in place at the start of the game or built by a player?

2)
Forest/Mountain Hex without any grass land.


Could easily add a bit more tightness to a map, don't mind it.

3) 3 peat hex tiles:

Maybe incorporate this into a Clan power somehow? Not a big fan, adds a bit of complexity unnecessarily.

EXPORT CONTRACTS

1) flexible contracts: a few additional contracts may allow a certain flexibility which processed goods you need to discard. However, their average payoff should be a bit lower than average.


I like this it makes specialising a little bit playable, I think this is well countered by the "2 VP per different type of unit on the map" scoring tile. Definitely worth testing!

2) the building bonus could be an additional direct export bonus.

So printed on an export contract? Interesting, I think that the goods requirements would have to be quite high though

SOLO GAMEPLAY

Any Solo upgrades could only be a good thing! It plays a bit like a puzzle at the moment, so a dynamic automa would be pretty cool.

All in all, I think the suggestions made are really interesting and still retain the feel of the original game. I like that you haven't decided to add another series of rules but rather built the changes into the variable game tiles (Clans, Ports, Scoring Tiles, etc.) I think if you stick with this approach the expansion will work really really well. I'm looking forward to it!
 
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Juma Al-JouJou
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Another idea for a port tile I had

Take a contract even if you already have an unfulfilled contract at normal cost. Put the new contract above or below your old unfulfilled one.

This lets you secure a favorable late game contract in the first round and you also save some money because you dont need to buy the contract late at high cost.


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Juma Al-JouJou
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snowey1210 wrote:
CLAN POWERS:


[b][i]4) Highly-Skilled Clan


An interesting one, I take it that there'd have to be some sort of marker to indicate which workers are special.

The expansion would include 2 meeples with a different shape and color than the existing ones so the clan would have 8 normal meeples and these 2 manager meeples.
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Michael Duchesne
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Is the expansion coming to kickstarter or retail? If coming to kickstarter is the campaign scheduled for 2018 or next year?
 
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Juma Al-JouJou
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Justice_Bolt wrote:
Is the expansion coming to kickstarter or retail? If coming to kickstarter is the campaign scheduled for 2018 or next year?

Very likely Kickstarter but I dont have a schedule yet. You can subscribe on my website to be notified: https://karma-games.com/

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Steve Clark
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I thought you'd look here...the answer is slightly cryptic
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Innovatormentor wrote:
Another idea for a port tile I had

Take a contract even if you already have an unfulfilled contract at normal cost. Put the new contract above or below your old unfulfilled one.

This lets you secure a favorable late game contract in the first round and you also save some money because you dont need to buy the contract late at high cost.



Hmm, I dunno...treads on Buchanan a bit. It's also worth up to £20 if taken in round 1, which is 2x more than most ports. (albeit £15 of that comes as a saving later on)
 
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Merlin M
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Steve C wrote:
Innovatormentor wrote:
Another idea for a port tile I had

Take a contract even if you already have an unfulfilled contract at normal cost. Put the new contract above or below your old unfulfilled one.

This lets you secure a favorable late game contract in the first round and you also save some money because you dont need to buy the contract late at high cost.



Hmm, I dunno...treads on Buchanan a bit. It's also worth up to £20 if taken in round 1, which is 2x more than most ports. (albeit £15 of that comes as a saving later on)

And if the port tile that lets you duplicate another port is also on the board, you could get a total of 2 extra contracts - so double that value (less the three pounds it costs)...
 
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Juma Al-JouJou
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Steve C wrote:
Innovatormentor wrote:
Another idea for a port tile I had

Take a contract even if you already have an unfulfilled contract at normal cost. Put the new contract above or below your old unfulfilled one.

This lets you secure a favorable late game contract in the first round and you also save some money because you dont need to buy the contract late at high cost.



Hmm, I dunno...treads on Buchanan a bit. It's also worth up to £20 if taken in round 1, which is 2x more than most ports. (albeit £15 of that comes as a saving later on)


I would specify that Buchanan can place 2 contracts on top of existing ones, so they would not be at a big disadvantage.

Yeah, the saving is 20 pounds but in the last round. When you save 10 pounds in the first round that is easily worth more than 20 pounds in the last round:

If you spend 10 on a miner +2 for the hex space, you spend 12 pounds in total and this will give you an income of 6 pounds (50% of your investment). Let's call 50% the internal interest rate of the game.

So 10 pounds in the first round is as valuable as 15 pounds in the second round, and as valuable as 22.5 pounds in the 3rd round etc.

However, securing favorable end game contracts has an intrinsic strategic value, you can plan ahead, you can reinvest early income since you know you can export a lot late in the game etc.

Thus, I consider this port tile quite balanced and interesting. Also, some players complained that some contracts like meat heavy ones etc. stall for most of the game and this port tile would reduce the tendency that good late-game contracts are not taken for most of the game. So the port tile would also benefit those players who do not use the port tile.

The disadvantage is that players would likely trade less since they know what they need and will produce the goods themselves.
 
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Steve Clark
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I think it would need specifying that you can't have more than 1 extra contract in this way (2 for Buchanan), so that you can't copy it with the KS port until you've finished that extra contract(s).

(otherwise you'd get Buchanan with 6 contracts at once and everyone else with 3...which would be rather stupid IMO)
 
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Juma Al-JouJou
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Steve C wrote:
I think it would need specifying that you can't have more than 1 extra contract in this way (2 for Buchanan), so that you can't copy it with the KS port until you've finished that extra contract(s).

(otherwise you'd get Buchanan with 6 contracts at once and everyone else with 3...which would be rather stupid IMO)

That is not possible because there are only 6-8 contracts available on the contract board. In addition there are hardly enough favorable contracts around to make it likely that more than 1-2 players would use that port tile in the same round.

PS: If a player receives an additional contract through the port tile and fulfills one of the contracts in the second round, they cant take a new contract until they fulfilled the current unfulfilled contract.
 
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Doug Stewart
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Juma:
What about new starting tiles that give technology boosts in lieu of some £ or goods? Bumps in shipping distance or upgrades to your workers, primarily...
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Juma Al-JouJou
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Quote:
7) Railroad Clan:
Start of Game: You have 12 grey cubes in your stock that represent railroad tracks.

You can build 1-2 railroad tokens per turn (in addition to your main action) adjacent to any of your units or any railroad token already placed. You can even place railroads on hexes occupied by you or your opponents' units. The cost for doing so depends on the miner (not necessarily your miner) that is closest. The cost is: distance * 2 pounds. All land hexes along railroads are reachable for you without shipping. Placing a grey cube across a river costs 3 pounds extra.

The hexes on which a railroad is built are not occupied by you until you deploy a unit there. You still pay the land cost.

When you deploy on a hex with a railroad: any opponents' units along the same raildroad are considered neighboring and you can use the neighborhood bonus for exactly one type of good and buy 3 (or 4 in a two player game) units of that good with a single merchant. All your units along the railroad are considered connected via shipping for the settlement scoring.

End of game: 1 VP per railroad token built.

EDIT: I tend to think that crossing loch spaces with railroads should not be allowed.


Since many of you wrote that the railroad clan is too complex, I thought about simplifying the clan.

How about these differences:

The costs for placing a railroad token is always 2 pounds.
Crossing a river costs 2 pounds extra and crossing a loch space with railroads would not be possible.

You can build 1-2 railroad tokens per turn (in addition to your main action) onto any hex with one of your units or onto a hex adjacent to any railroad token already placed.

Everything else would remain the same.

What do you think?

The port tile that allows you to take 3 merchants back could be pretty op for this clan because they could do lots of high-speed trading. I'd have to find a solution for that.


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Juma Al-JouJou
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zamoose wrote:
Juma:
What about new starting tiles that give technology boosts in lieu of some £ or goods? Bumps in shipping distance or upgrades to your workers, primarily...

I don't like that so much because it would make Clan Stewart and Fergusson less unique if other players can copy some of their benefits even before the 1st round.

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Steve Clark
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Innovatormentor wrote:
The port tile that allows you to take 3 merchants back could be pretty op for this clan because they could do lots of high-speed trading. I'd have to find a solution for that.

Maybe the neighbourhood bonus could just be a normal one (ie. 1 merchant for each good), as 3 goods per merchant seems too OP considering you get the bonus every time you build on the railroad.

(the clan looks powerful anyway with the increased reach plus the 10 free VP, and it would be a shame to ruin an excellent port tile because of it)

 
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Juma Al-JouJou
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Steve C wrote:
Innovatormentor wrote:
The port tile that allows you to take 3 merchants back could be pretty op for this clan because they could do lots of high-speed trading. I'd have to find a solution for that.

Maybe the neighbourhood bonus could just be a normal one (ie. 1 merchant for each good), as 3 goods per merchant seems too OP considering you get the bonus every time you build on the railroad.

No, the clan would have to place exactly 1 merchant for a neighborhood trade but could still buy only up to 3 (4 goods in a 2 player game) goods with the merchant. So they cannot place 5 merchants and buy 15.

I think your version would be too week. 12 railroad tokens means 12 hexes. 2 are used for the starting workers. 10 left. Lets say 4 are occupied by opponents and 4 are occupied by yourself. That means you received 4 times the chance to buy through neighborhood through your special power. And other players will try minimize your chances to do so by placing workers on your railroads.

Another way to make the clan stronger would be to give them more railroad tokens or to give them more VP per railroad token. I tend to give them more railroad tokens so that they can get around without any shipping ideally.
 
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Christopher Thomas
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Innovatormentor wrote:
7) Railroad Clan:
When you deploy on a hex with a railroad: any opponents' units along the same railroad are considered neighboring and you can use the neighborhood bonus for exactly one type of good and buy 3 (or 4 in a two player game) units of that good with a single merchant.
I want to try these clans out, and I had a question here.

When the Railroad clan takes this neighborhood bonus, what would be the correct way to adjust the market price:
1) raise the price 1 for each good purchased.
2) raise the price only 1 because 1 merchant was employed.

I'm thinking it's #1, yes?
 
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Juma Al-JouJou
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svardosi wrote:
Innovatormentor wrote:
7) Railroad Clan:
When you deploy on a hex with a railroad: any opponents' units along the same railroad are considered neighboring and you can use the neighborhood bonus for exactly one type of good and buy 3 (or 4 in a two player game) units of that good with a single merchant.
I want to try these clans out, and I had a question here.

When the Railroad clan takes this neighborhood bonus, what would be the correct way to adjust the market price:
1) raise the price 1 for each good purchased.
2) raise the price only 1 because 1 merchant was employed.

I'm thinking it's #1, yes?

yes, #1
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Christopher Thomas
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Innovatormentor wrote:
Another way to make the clan stronger would be to give them more railroad tokens or to give them more VP per railroad token. I tend to give them more railroad tokens so that they can get around without any shipping ideally.

If the ideal is to get around without any shipping, then consider that in 2-player games there are ports that can be reached ONLY by 1-loch shipping (board A1, C1, C2, D1, D2). So the Railroad clan is inclined to invest in 1-loch shipping at minimum unless you allow railroads to enter lochs.

I think railroads as a complete replacement for shipping is a great idea, by the way. It makes the clan very unique. Perhaps allow railroads to be built directly adjacent to ports, but not otherwise on lochs in general.

I played this clan once tonight, scoring 148 (I almost thought I scored 136, but then remembered 1 VP per railroad at game end). I'm going to give it another try tomorrow with a new plan in mind to improve.
 
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Juma Al-JouJou
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svardosi wrote:
Innovatormentor wrote:
Another way to make the clan stronger would be to give them more railroad tokens or to give them more VP per railroad token. I tend to give them more railroad tokens so that they can get around without any shipping ideally.

I played this clan once tonight, scoring 148 (I almost thought I scored 136, but then remembered 1 VP per railroad at game end). I'm going to give it another try tomorrow with a new plan in mind to improve.

What is your average score with other clans? And how did your opponents score? 148 VP sounds as if it could be balanced.





 
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Really hoping for clan McDuck in the expansion

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Jonathan Politis
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I have no idea if anyone else has said this, but can the expansion please have metal coins of a higher denomination?

Similarly, can we get more of each good? The cardboard tokens aren't cutting it.
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Christopher Thomas
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Innovatormentor wrote:
svardosi wrote:
Innovatormentor wrote:
Another way to make the clan stronger would be to give them more railroad tokens or to give them more VP per railroad token. I tend to give them more railroad tokens so that they can get around without any shipping ideally.

I played this clan once tonight, scoring 148 (I almost thought I scored 136, but then remembered 1 VP per railroad at game end). I'm going to give it another try tomorrow with a new plan in mind to improve.

What is your average score with other clans? And how did your opponents score? 148 VP sounds as if it could be balanced.
Typically, I feel if I don't hit 160+ then I didn't do well. This was a 2-player game, and my opponent scored 124 but is still fairly new to CoC. I admit that I just had a hard time seeing how to make the most of my railroads.

I played again tonight and did even worse... 113!

I tried to see if I could get away without buying any shipping, but that meant I could not use the ports (as my opponent placed first on the only land-reachable port). And I felt like I needed those bonuses to help out. So, as it works now, I think railroads are not really an equal alternate to shipping because this clan will want to buy up their shipping just to get port bonuses.

In the two games I played, I had laid out a lot of tracks fairly early in rounds 1 and 2, and that might be a mistake because it's a lot of cash to lay out without building production (12-14 pounds for 6 railroads + crossing a river). It could be more correct to play somewhat more conventionally in round 1, perhaps focusing on placing workers for income in order to buy a lot of goods later. Maybe start building railroads late in round 2 after you see where the factories are.

I will also note that with 12 railroad cubes, you don't really get very far across the map...especially if you want to branch your railroad. So I support the idea of having more railroad cubes. Maybe even make the cost CHEAPER (say 1 per cube, 2 if crossing a river), but make them worth fewer VP at game end -- 1 VP per 2 cubes, or maybe even 0 VP if cheaper & more railroads make them strong enough.

All of this feedback is with the caveat that I just might not have figured out how to properly play this clan, yet.
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