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Subject: Question about Measuring Range for AoE Attacks rss

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Daniel Nelson
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I have a question about how to measure range for ranged AoE attacks.

For most range measurement, you measure range around walls. The FAQ states the following:

Quote:
If an enemy is on the other side of this one-dimensional wall line from me, can I hit him with a melee attack?
Not with a non-AoE meele attack. All range, even range 1 melee attacks, can't be counted through walls.

However for ranged AoE attacks, you can measure range into walls. Again from the FAQ:

Quote:
Can I target empty hexes with an area attack?
While you are not technically "targeting" the empty hex, the hex of an area attack that is within the range specified by the attack can be empty. It can even be a wall, so long as there are enemies in the attack area that are in your line-of-sight.

I've been taking this to mean one can ignore walls entirely when measuring range for AoE placement. Is that correct?

More concretely, is this monster making a legal Range 2 AoE attack?

 
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Alejandro
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I believe that is not a valid Range 2 attack, it is however a valid Range 3 attack. As pointed out in the other thread you still measure the range normally going around the wall not through it.

In other words if this was not an AoE ranged attack and you were targeting a monster below 1 (where the AoE starts) you would need Range 3, for consistency the same rule should be applied when choosing the AoE starting hex.
 
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Alex Florin
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Range is extended by 1 in that situation. It is at range 3
 
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Jay Johnson
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What if the AoE attack pattern was three hexes (like an extended Skewer)? Could that attack be made, or would the wall block it?
 
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Alex Florin
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JayJ79 wrote:
What if the AoE attack pattern was three hexes (like an extended Skewer)? Could that attack be made, or would the wall block it?


The first hex can be placed before the wall and the target will be reached with a 3 hex line AoE.

As long a single hex of the pattern is in range, the rest of the pattern will affect the area as per it's diagram.

 
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Jay Johnson
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aflorin wrote:
JayJ79 wrote:
What if the AoE attack pattern was three hexes (like an extended Skewer)? Could that attack be made, or would the wall block it?


The first hex can be placed before the wall and the target will be reached with a 3 hex line AoE.

As long a single hex of the pattern is in range, the rest of the pattern will affect the area as per it's diagram.

Though it would still require valid Line of Sight in order to make an attack (which there is, in this example)
 
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Alex Florin
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JayJ79 wrote:
aflorin wrote:
JayJ79 wrote:
What if the AoE attack pattern was three hexes (like an extended Skewer)? Could that attack be made, or would the wall block it?


The first hex can be placed before the wall and the target will be reached with a 3 hex line AoE.

As long a single hex of the pattern is in range, the rest of the pattern will affect the area as per it's diagram.

Though it would still require valid Line of Sight in order to make an attack (which there is, in this example)


Correct. LOS is always required for attacks.
 
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Des T.
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Our reminder on how range is handled is that it's measured as if the attacker were to move there with flying.
 
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Martin Ender
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DeS_Tructive wrote:
Our reminder on how range is handled is that it's measured as if the attacker were to move there with flying.

That seems to be incorrect given Alex's ruling that you can count range a single tile into walls (although it was also my interpretation of the rules). See the other thread.
 
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Matt Rossi
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The bottom hex of this AoE attack is range 3, not range 2. The hex above M and the hex on the other side of the wall are not considered adjacent. They are range 2 away from each other.

Quote:
If an enemy is on the other side of this one-dimensional wall line from me, can I hit him with a melee attack?

Not with a non-AoE meelee attack. All range, even range 1 melee attacks, can't be counted through walls. In fact, for all intents and purposes (including looting), these two hexes are not adjacent and considered two hexes apart. Note that AoE Melee attacks use their diagram (not adjancency) to determine if a target is in range. The following image shows the range (4 red hexes) between a source and a target. The blue line shows their LOS


The rest of this FAQ entry is specifically about AoE melee attacks (and how they don't use range, but rather their diagram), but the part about two hexes separated by a wall line is relevant here. The first tile of this AoE is three hexes away from the monster, not two.

I don't think the ruling i'm citing considered this corner case when it was made, but it still has relevance to it and imo debunks it, even if we have to jump through hoops to get there. Personally, I think this question is pretty settled, but I could see a case being made for Isaac to overturn it. This corner case exists because of the awkward way that Gloomhaven does line of sight (Any vertex to any vertex) compared to other games (Center of hex to center of hex).
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Des T.
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m_ender wrote:
DeS_Tructive wrote:
Our reminder on how range is handled is that it's measured as if the attacker were to move there with flying.

That seems to be incorrect given Alex's ruling that you can count range a single tile into walls (although it was also my interpretation of the rules). See the other thread.


The important part being "seems". The discussion is still ongoing, and I'm still kind of expecting Isaac to pipe up with a "wall hexes are completely ignored for all reasons." or something like that.
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Daniel Nelson
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OK, let me extend the question, assuming people are still interested in discussing this.

To demonstrate a point, I've changed the situation slightly, but kept it very similar to my original post. (The monster is one hex right, and the AoE pattern is now three hexes.)

A.
It's been said in this thread that the following attack is a Range 3 attack. That is, placing the AoE past a thin wall requires measuring range around that thin wall. That makes sense and is consistent with how range works in other contexts.



B.
Now, what if I change the thin wall to a solid hex north of the thin wall's previous position? (In the images below, a grayish-red hex is a wall hex within the AoE.) Is this still a Range 3 attack? Or is this now a Range 2 attack?



C.
Finally, what if I add an additional wall hex? Is this a Range 2 attack? Is this attack now illegal?



Apologies if I'm being overly pedantic. I just love discussing this kind of stuff.

Also, at this point I'm basically just asking the same question as this thread: Ranged AoE and wall hexes. I'm just leading up to the question in a different way.
 
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Martin Sjöstrand
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AluminumAngel wrote:
OK, let me extend the question, assuming people are still interested in discussing this.

To demonstrate a point, I've changed the situation slightly, but kept it very similar to my original post. (The monster is one hex right, and the AoE pattern is now three hexes.)

A.
It's been said in this thread that the following attack is a Range 3 attack. That is, placing the AoE past a thin wall requires measuring range around that thin wall. That makes sense and is consistent with how range works in other contexts.



B.
Now, what if I change the thin wall to a solid hex north of the thin wall's previous position? (In the images below, a grayish-red hex is a wall hex within the AoE.) Is this still a Range 3 attack? Or is this now a Range 2 attack?



C.
Finally, what if I add an additional wall hex? Is this a Range 2 attack? Is this attack now illegal?



Apologies if I'm being overly pedantic. I just love discussing this kind of stuff.

Also, at this point I'm basically just asking the same question as this thread: Ranged AoE and wall hexes. I'm just leading up to the question in a different way.


From what I have gathered the answers to those questions are currently:

A) 3
B) 2
C) 3

But Alex have asked Isaac for a definitive answer.

Edit: From a personal stand point I wish the answers were: A) 3 B) 4 C) 4 though; that range could never be counted to a wall hex.
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Alejandro
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Marty78 wrote:
Edit: From a personal stand point I wish the answers were: A) 3 B) 4 C) 4 though; that range could never be counted to a wall hex.


I'm with you on this one. And will probably keep on playing it like this.
 
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Adrian Brooks
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AluminumAngel wrote:

A.
It's been said in this thread that the following attack is a Range 3 attack. That is, placing the AoE past a thin wall requires measuring range around that thin wall. That makes sense and is consistent with how range works in other contexts.



B.
Now, what if I change the thin wall to a solid hex north of the thin wall's previous position? (In the images below, a grayish-red hex is a wall hex within the AoE.) Is this still a Range 3 attack? Or is this now a Range 2 attack?



C.
Finally, what if I add an additional wall hex? Is this a Range 2 attack? Is this attack now illegal?





3, 2, 3. Perhaps.

But whatever it is you're using to draw the situations is misleading. Or, if not misleading, not actually what the game board looks like. It's not obvious how the physical game would represent B and C (without making a guess which differs from other folks' guesses), and if B is a solid hex, then that's targeting through a wall, and thus invalid, whereas C might not pass through a wall at all.

 
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Daniel Nelson
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Slow Dog wrote:
But whatever it is you're using to draw the situations is misleading. Or, if not misleading, not actually what the game board looks like. It's not obvious how the physical game would represent B and C (without making a guess which differs from other folks' guesses)...

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying its hard to tell what's going on (what is a wall, what is an empty hex, etc.) because the pictures don't use standard game components?

Or are you saying this situation would never come up in a normal scenario?

Either is a fair statement. For what it's worth, I'm using this web page to draw the situation: http://gloom.aluminumangel.org/

Slow Dog wrote:
...and if B is a solid hex, then that's targeting through a wall, and thus invalid, whereas C might not pass through a wall at all.

When you say "targeting", are you talking about line of sight to the character? As in, you're saying monster doesn't have line of sight to the character in B? Or are you saying the monster is not allowed to place the AoE on top of a wall?

To clarify the image, both the gray and the grayish-red hexes are solid, wall hexes. The red shading means that the wall is within the AoE.
 
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Adrian Brooks
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AluminumAngel wrote:
Slow Dog wrote:
...and if B is a solid hex, then that's targeting through a wall, and thus invalid, whereas C might not pass through a wall at all.

When you say "targeting", are you talking about line of sight to the character? Or are you saying the monster is not allowed to place the AoE on top of a wall?

I don't mean LOS, but maybe I should have said "counting" rather than "targeting".

The rules say
Quote:
range cannot be counted through walls


The actual, physical game has hexes with wall in them that aren't full of wall, and other places where the hex is completely filled. Perhaps you can count range to the former without counting through a wall, whereas a filled hex has wall to its edge and so you cannot count through that at all, ever.

Perhaps. I'm not sure I'm convinced myself.
 
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Alex Florin
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Heard back from Isaac.

You can't select a wall hex as the target for a ranged AoE so that FAQ entry needs to be modified. Of course, the AoE pattern can overlap a wall hex as long as it isn't the initial target hex. The statement that you can't count range through walls is correct.

Note that this doesn't really apply to melee AoE's as they don't have a specific target hex, their pattern is driven by the figure's own hex (the grey one)

Edit: so B and C are invalid attacks

Edit 2: ... Unless the attack was a range 4. In which case it could reach one of the clear hexes.
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Daniel Nelson
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Thanks, Alex!
 
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