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Subject: There are 2 types of people in the world... rss

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Jason Tam
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People who love the mind and people who hate the mind.

I been using the mind as an icebreaker game especially in new groups and its fascinating how this game will divide people and you'll immediately know what type of personality and games someone will like. They will think the mind is stupid and simply a probability or random luck based game/activity. Or they love the game and are more open to gaming experiences outside of thinking about the math. After playing the mind you know which people you want to join and play games with.

Anyone else able to psychologically profile people with this game?
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Martin G
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Yes I know just what you mean. Fortunately my group all love it!
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Kirk Roberts
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jdht wrote:
Anyone else able to psychologically profile people with this game?

In my limited experience (three sessions / groups of people) I characterize it as “ability to engage with the game and the people at the table”.

The people who haven’t liked it seem to be distracted by the environment around us and/or their phones, or just don’t seem to want to look much at the other players.

In general it isn’t a stretch to say that the people that love The Mind are probably the people I most want to play ANY game with: fully engaged and interested in having fun.

EDIT: I realized “fun” is hopelessly subjective. I mean social dynamics and prioritizing an enjoyable experience for all over winning or being “right” somehow. That probably doesn’t cover it, either, but I’ll stop there.
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Jason Tam
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kirkroberts wrote:
The people who haven’t liked it seem to be distracted by the environment around us and/or their phones, or just don’t seem to want to look much at the other players.


Yeah true I've noticed this too!
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Nadine Grech
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jdht wrote:
kirkroberts wrote:
The people who haven’t liked it seem to be distracted by the environment around us and/or their phones, or just don’t seem to want to look much at the other players.


Yeah true I've noticed this too!


As someone who initially loved The Mind but got tired of it pretty quickly, I have to say it's true. I'm the kind of person who has the habit of asking 'Is it my turn yet?' multiply times so yeah, you could say I'm a very impatient person. This game is not for impatient people. Another thing I hated about this game, apart from waiting it out with nothing else to do, is I have to look at the other players which makes me wring my neck causing it to hurt!
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Kevin B. Smith
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I think reactions to The Mind give you insights. But for me, I don't think it helps me know whether or not I would want to play games with a person. I don't overlap gaming tastes 100% with anyone, and this might be one of the rare times we disagree. However, knowing how someone feels about The Mind can guide which types of games I would play with them.

On the other hand, anyone who claims it is "not a game" is unlikely to be someone I would enjoy gaming with.
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Neil Isagam
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jdht wrote:
kirkroberts wrote:
The people who haven’t liked it seem to be distracted by the environment around us and/or their phones, or just don’t seem to want to look much at the other players.


Yeah true I've noticed this too!


This. In all of our plays of it, the one common denominator between the few who have hated the game is that they all stunk at it due to their inability or unwillingness to concentrate. For the rest of us this thing just gets better with repeated plays.
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Trent Hamm
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The game itself isn't important. Spending time intellectually jousting with likeminded folks is the real reason to game.
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The only way to "enjoy" The Mind is to not engage with it. If you engage with it much at all, it's trivial to break. You just start counting in your head and playing cards in time with the count. If you're playing with likewise focused people, they pick up on the rhythm on their own, or else you merge your counting rhythm automatically with someone else who's counting. This isn't a game, but a simple example of how mirror neurons work.
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Kevin B. Smith
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trenttsd wrote:
The only way to "enjoy" The Mind is to not engage with it. If you engage with it much at all [and violate both the letter and spirit of the written rules], it's trivial to break.

Fixed that for you.
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James Clarke
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trenttsd wrote:
The only way to "enjoy" The Mind is to not engage with it. If you engage with it much at all, it's trivial to break. You just start counting in your head and playing cards in time with the count. If you're playing with likewise focused people, they pick up on the rhythm on their own, or else you merge your counting rhythm automatically with someone else who's counting. This isn't a game, but a simple example of how mirror neurons work.


Those who enjoy playing Mind Cliché Misconceptions Bingo, will have scored at least three in that paragraph. A reminder of the current list, although I may have missed a few:

1. Not a game
2. Count in your head
3. Play your highest card
4. Stare blankly
5. Downtime mechanism
6. Do nothing
7. Don't let me stop you, if you like this sort of thing
8. Don't you like other games?
9. Ambiguous rules
10. No choices
11. Haven't played but...
12. You're wrong to like this
13. Shouldn't win an award
14. Broken

Edit:
Remember, #11 doesn't need to be explicitly stated for it to score, when it's plainly evident.
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Anabelle T

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Counting in this game is similar to changing the die to whatever number you want after a roll in any dice game.

Having said that, if your group is going to count, someone should be tapping on the table for pacing because if the person holding the 16 is counting a little slower than the person holding the 17, a life will be lost.


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Filip Cam
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Once everyone realises that the game has an obvious solution (thinking of the numbers as seconds), how can you still enjoy it? Even without counting in your head, you always have an awareness of +- how many seconds have passed.

The response to this question is typically viscious, as if people WANT to break the game. I actually want to unbreak it, but I don't see how that is possible. I can't consciously turn off my awareness of time.
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Martin G
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krommenaas wrote:
Once everyone realises that the game has an obvious solution (thinking of the numbers as seconds), how can you still enjoy it? Even without counting in your head, you always have an awareness of +- how many seconds have passed.

The response to this question is typically viscious, as if people WANT to break the game. I actually want to unbreak it, but I don't see how that is possible. I can't consciously turn off my awareness of time.


No one's saying an 'awareness of time' breaks the game - that IS the game. It's explicit counting, if you can do it perfectly, that wouldn't be fun.
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Simon C
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Highland Cow wrote:
trenttsd wrote:
The only way to "enjoy" The Mind is to not engage with it. If you engage with it much at all, it's trivial to break. You just start counting in your head and playing cards in time with the count. If you're playing with likewise focused people, they pick up on the rhythm on their own, or else you merge your counting rhythm automatically with someone else who's counting. This isn't a game, but a simple example of how mirror neurons work.


Those who enjoy playing Mind Cliché Misconceptions Bingo, will have scored at least three in that paragraph. A reminder of the current list, although I may have missed a few:

1. Not a game
2. Count in your head
3. Play your highest card
4. Stare blankly
5. Downtime mechanism
6. Do nothing
7. Don't let me stop you, if you like this sort of thing
8. Don't you like other games?
9. Ambiguous rules
10. No choices
11. Haven't played but...
12. You're wrong to like this
13. Shouldn't win an award
14. Broken

Edit:
Remember, #11 doesn't need to be explicitly stated for it to score, when it's plainly evident.


You missed:

15. Just don't count
16. The rules say you're not allowed to count
17. The fun is in the fact people count at different speeds.
18. I'd never play games with someone who doesn't like this.
19. You can cheat at any co-op game.

(Turns out misconception Bingo works for both fans and detractors of the game! And who knew "don't let me stop you if you like this game" counted as a misconception?)

krommenaas wrote:
Once everyone realises that the game has an obvious solution (thinking of the numbers as seconds), how can you still enjoy it? Even without counting in your head, you always have an awareness of +- how many seconds have passed.

The response to this question is typically viscious, as if people WANT to break the game. I actually want to unbreak it, but I don't see how that is possible. I can't consciously turn off my awareness of time.


This is exactly my issue with the concept of the game, and it's odd how the fans of a game about "syncing up with and empathising with the other players" are so frequently happy to assert that people who have a negative view of The Mind are cheaters who hate fun.

To me, The Mind is like a game of Battleships where the two players and their displays are side by side. The rules say "don't look over at the other screen" and some people will manage never to do so. But some players will, despite the best will in the world, catch glimpses out the corner of their eye.

And it's simple to 'unbreak' both games! For Battleships, you sit on opposite sides of the table. For The Mind, you play using cards with words on and aim to sort them into alphabetical order. Without knowing the complete set of words available in your card set, you can't then count. Codenames cards would be fine if you make sure you're clear on which side you're using (and no-one knows the cards well enough to know the pairs from their backs).

But no, anyone who has an issue with the concept is someone who hates fun and is a dirty cheater.
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Justin
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krommenaas wrote:
Once everyone realises that the game has an obvious solution (thinking of the numbers as seconds), how can you still enjoy it?

By not doing that.
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Filip Cam
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astroglide wrote:
krommenaas wrote:
Once everyone realises that the game has an obvious solution (thinking of the numbers as seconds), how can you still enjoy it?

By not doing that.


It's hard to un-think something. It's like having to forget that 2 + 2 = 4.

Anyway I tried the game with my 8yo son. It took him 2 rounds to suggest we should use seconds, but when I told him we shouldn't count he forgot about it and as he's the hyperactive kind the game actually worked with him
 
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Filip Cam
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LeonardQuirm wrote:
And it's simple to 'unbreak' [...] you play using cards with words on and aim to sort them into alphabetical order.


Damn that's brilliant. I'd been thinking the alphabet and things of various sizes just weren't numerous enough to replace the 100 numbers, but words would work perfectly!
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James Clarke
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krommenaas wrote:
LeonardQuirm wrote:
And it's simple to 'unbreak' [...] you play using cards with words on and aim to sort them into alphabetical order.

Damn that's brilliant. I'd been thinking the alphabet and things of various sizes just weren't numerous enough to replace the 100 numbers, but words would work perfectly!


We find that The Mind strikes a rather nice balance of deduction, intuition and guesswork; A balance which makes the game enjoyable, tense and challenging. I suspect that this proposed (unlimited pool of) 'words' variant would reduce the experience to almost total guesswork and no deduction. This will likely cause you to burn through more lives and I fear, drain most of the appeal away.

Whilst I wouldn't wish to dismiss a game I haven't tried, (cough), I fear that exclamations of 'brilliant' and 'perfect' may not be realised when you actually test this variant. I for one however, would be pleased to hear how it goes, (good or otherwise).

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Kevin B. Smith
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krommenaas wrote:
astroglide wrote:
krommenaas wrote:
Once everyone realises that the game has an obvious solution (thinking of the numbers as seconds), how can you still enjoy it?

By not doing that.

It's hard to un-think something. It's like having to forget that 2 + 2 = 4.

I really don't understand why some people feel compelled to start counting seconds off in their head, even if they are trying not to.

Fortunately, even if you just can't help yourself, the game can still work as long as either a) others at the table don't share that compulsion, or b) others at the table don't approximate seconds at the same rate that you do. If you all agree to count off seconds as accurately as possible, you might as well pack the game away and play something else instead.

In one game, I found myself counting off seconds, only because I had read about that technique so much here on BGG. I immediately realized that doing so wouldn't help (for the reasons above), and of course it would reduce the fun if it did work. By then I had lost count, and I don't think I have counted before or since.
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Filip Cam
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peakhope wrote:
I really don't understand why some people feel compelled to start counting seconds off in their head, even if they are trying not to.


I don't think anyone feels compelled to actually count the seconds. Rather, when you know your next card is 15 up from the previous card, the natural thing to do is play it when you feel around 15 seconds have passed. I don't know about you but I have a feel for time and I suspect most people do, without actually counting the seconds. Someone said that this feel for time is actually what the game is about, but I thought it was about reading each other's body language, which sounds like much more fun.
 
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Martin G
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krommenaas wrote:
Someone said that this feel for time is actually what the game is about, but I thought it was about reading each other's body language, which sounds like much more fun.


A bit of both for me?
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Kirk Roberts
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krommenaas wrote:
I don't know about you but I have a feel for time and I suspect most people do, without actually counting the seconds.

Based on your avatar you're a drummer, so timing is natural for you.

I lead a weekly community drum circle and see lots of evidence against the idea that "most" people have a feel for time. Or, rather, they DO have a natural feel for time but it's buried under years and years of negative programming about how they don't have rhythm, aren't musical, "good" == flashy, etc. (I digress, a little)

Time can be very elastic in this game. Sticking to a rigid idea of seconds is unnecessarily limiting.
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Kevin B. Smith
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krommenaas wrote:
I don't think anyone feels compelled to actually count the seconds. Rather, when you know your next card is 15 up from the previous card, the natural thing to do is play it when you feel around 15 seconds have passed.

Huh. That's totally not how I play, and I'm guessing many others. For me, time is non-linear. At the start of the game, I'll probably at least start to play a 5 before 5 seconds have passed, I'm pretty sure I would wait longer than 30 seconds to play a 30.

Except that it depends on what others are doing. If nobody is giving any indication that they are going to play any time soon, I'll speed up. If people are looking at each other nervously with their fingers on their hands, I'll hold off longer.

Clearly the game feels different to different people. And groups.
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James Clarke
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I actually believe that there is a counting variant which could be played with these cards. Not the cynical game-breaking technique as is so often proposed in these threads, but a silly end of the evening style, piece of light entertainment.

The concept is that with a suitable soundtrack playing, players have to mentally keep register of a particular audio cue (or cues) and play their cards in sync with their own reckoning of the overall tally. Cards would be played face down and the sequence revealed at the end, just like the official Blind Mode. The obvious soundtracks would be popular songs with often repeated word(s). But perhaps ambient birdsong, jungle noises, city traffic, tennis matches etc. would provide altogether richer and more confusing sources of audio cues. If anyone can think of any specific audio examples where the cues come thick and fast, there’s a good chance we’ll give it a try sometime.

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Kevin B. Smith
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A really challenging audio version would be some song that calls out a bunch of different numbers!
 
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