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Subject: How best to visualize Direct Draw rss

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Gordon G
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What is the best way to visualize Direct Draw?

Option one where the Italian combat unit (41.19) is "drawing"/pulling supply from the 2T depot (39.24)...



or Option 2 where the 2T supply dump is pushing supply to the Italian combat unit?



At first it appears to be a distinction without a difference, but hear me out...

In option 1, the Italian unit can "draw" supply and get adjacent to the supply dump (adjacent is good enough). The supply paths which end in 39.23 are never blocked by the ZOC emanating from the British armored car unit in 38.23 thanks to the negation of friendly Axis units along the path (39.23, 40.22, 41.22).

In option 2, if the supply is pushed, this is not the case. The British ZOC blocks the supply path that starts in 39.24 and goes to 39.23.

Again, terminology (draw vs push) means things.

 
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Jim K.
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Quote:
12.3a Direct Draw. To draw supply, units must be within 5 MP of a dump, or a hex that is adjacent to the dump (12.3c). Needed supply can be drawn from one or more dumps within range.

Always use Truck MPs when counting the path back to a dump. (Exception: for an HQ with a throw range that is Leg or Track, use that mobility type.) Count the MP just as if moving a unit (see 12.3d).


Note counting the path back to a dump. You trace from the unit back to the dump. Also shown schematically in the example with extenders a few pages later in the rules.
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Gordon G
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skink wrote:
Note counting the path back to a dump. You trace from the unit back to the dump. Also shown schematically in the example with extenders a few pages later in the rules.


So option 1 is the best way to visualize Direct Draw. Thanks.

And the British unit adjacent to the dump DOES NOT block the supply?

---BREAK BREAK ____

I found this on CSW OCS Forum.

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX/.ee6b471/44784

Question: My supply dump is in the ZOC of a enemy unit, but one of my units can trace a supply path to the hex that is adjacent to that dump. So the unit can use the SPs in this dump (even the dump itself in ZOC of a enemy unit), right?

Answer: Exactly. EZOC on the dump hex makes no difference. It blocks only in hexes into/ through which the supply path is traced. (subject to negation, and applies only where the supply line uses truck mobility)

...

The adjacent hex is, in effect, the end hex of the draw (or throw) path. 12.3c even points out that the adjacent hex is used regardless of whether movement is even possible between it and the hex containing the dump (or unit thrown to). Thus the adjacent hex is the last hex of the path for which MPs are spent.

...

One situation where ezoc would affect the ultimate end hex of a draw path involves detrainable hexes and ports. In order for such hexes to be useable as supply locations they must themselves be out of unnegated ezoc.
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Perry A
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If the Italian unit is in a hex with mountain terrain then it can not draw. Trucks and truck MPs are not allowed in mountain terrain unless they use a road like feature.

You may think it does not matter but it does in OCS.

You can't move from A to B if you can't move from B to A.

So any unit in a mountain hex without a road like feature can not draw.

Supply has to be thrown via a HQ or the supply has to be adjacent.
 
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Jim F
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I'm just curious what set of circumstances led to this happening.
 
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Gordon G
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perry555 wrote:
If the Italian unit is in a hex with mountain terrain then it can not draw. Trucks and truck MPs are not allowed in mountain terrain unless they use a road like feature.


The Italian unit is in a rough hex so trucks can travel through it. But your observation is appreciated. That is a subtlety that is not immediately obvious.
 
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Gordon G
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Ashiefan wrote:

I'm just curious what set of circumstances led to this happening.


Do you mean what was the tactical situation that required the Italian unit to need fuel or why did I have a rules question about the direction of the draw?

If the former, I'm trying to use the Italian unit to sweep around the Allied southern flank at Testour.

If the latter, I was unsure if a supply source (i.e. the depot) was under EZOC, if it could still provide supply.
 
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Jim F
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More how the Italians were cut off from that supply and why the Allies didn’t overrun it.
 
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Gordon G
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Ashiefan wrote:

More how the Italians were cut off from that supply and why the Allies didn’t overrun it.


It was actually an Allied Supply Dump that the Axis overran the previous turn.

However, I cleaned it up and repositioned some units for the purposes of illustration for my post.
 
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norman harman
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> So any unit in a mountain hex without a road like feature can not draw.

There is important Direct Draw Exception in 12.3a. HQ units use their mobility type. So the few HQ with leg or track movement factors can trace (and throw) places normal units can't.
 
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Gordon G
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njharman wrote:
> So any unit in a mountain hex without a road like feature can not draw.

There is important Direct Draw Exception in 12.3a. HQ units use their mobility type. So the few HQ with leg or track movement factors can trace (and throw) places normal units can't.


From the CSW Forum

"12.3c is the key. 

Using Direct Draw, you are correct that a unit in a mountain hex cannot exit the hex using supply's Truck MA. However, if there is Supply in an adjacent hex, the unit can still draw from there. Note this is also true across something like an all-sea hexside — adjacent is always close enough. 

Similarly, and HQ could Throw Supply to an adjacent hex, and then 12.3c would allow the unit in that mountain hex to get the supply" 


My response to the above explanation

I get the "adjacent is close enough" rule if a HQ is throwing supply (i.e. push = counting Truck MA from the HQ/dump to the unit) into the hex adjacent to the mountain hex. But this is a draw (i.e. pull = I count Truck MA from the unit back to the dump). If I'm counting 5 MA from the unit back to the supply dump, I can never start the count in a mountain hex. 

Case in point; a unit in a clear hex wants to draw supply from a dump and has a clear path to the dump. However, the supply dump itself is in an EZOC. No problem, I can count back 5 MA from the unit, to the hex adjacent to the supply dump (not in EZOC). 

Now if the unit is in a mountain hex, you want me to start the count from the hex adjacent to the mountain and count back 5 MA to the hex adjacent to the supply dump? 

I would think sooner or later my supply line needs to originate (start the 5 MA count) in either a unit (draw) or HQ/supply dump (throw). 

-----

It's been several days since I've posted that question and I have not got a response. Unfortunately, because of the way CSW Forum works, the question is now buried under several pages of chaff and unlikely to get answered. Anyone here want to try to explain how a supply line never has to originate in a dump or end at a unit?


 
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Jim K.
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Doesn't

Quote:
12.3a Direct Draw. To draw supply, units must be within 5 MP of a dump, or a hex that is adjacent to the dump (12.3c). Needed supply can be drawn from one or more dumps within range.

cover your question?

If the unit is in a mountain hex adjacent to a supply dump, then it starts its direct draw trace from the unit but can't leave the hex - but the trace still satisfies getting as far as to a hex adjacent to a dump, and so is in supply.
 
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Gordon G
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skink wrote:
Doesn't

Quote:
12.3a Direct Draw. To draw supply, units must be within 5 MP of a dump, or a hex that is adjacent to the dump (12.3c). Needed supply can be drawn from one or more dumps within range.

cover your question?

If the unit is in a mountain hex adjacent to a supply dump, then it starts its direct draw trace from the unit but can't leave the hex - but the trace still satisfies getting as far as to a hex adjacent to a dump, and so is in supply.


Not really. Look at the option 1 picture at the start of the thread. If hex 41.19 is a mountain hex. I can't count "1" from 41.19 to 41.20. The move is prohibited for truck MA. Therefore, since it's prohibited at the start, I can't continue the count back to the dump.
 
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GordoMG wrote:
skink wrote:
Doesn't

Quote:
12.3a Direct Draw. To draw supply, units must be within 5 MP of a dump, or a hex that is adjacent to the dump (12.3c). Needed supply can be drawn from one or more dumps within range.

cover your question?

If the unit is in a mountain hex adjacent to a supply dump, then it starts its direct draw trace from the unit but can't leave the hex - but the trace still satisfies getting as far as to a hex adjacent to a dump, and so is in supply.


Not really. Look at the option 1 picture at the start of the thread. If hex 41.19 is a mountain hex. I can't count "1" from 41.19 to 41.20. The move is prohibited for truck MA. Therefore, since it's prohibited at the start, I can't continue the count back to the dump.



Precisely. If your understanding that, I'm not seeing your question as being unanswered.
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Gordon G
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Fly by Night wrote:
GordoMG wrote:
skink wrote:
Doesn't

Quote:
12.3a Direct Draw. To draw supply, units must be within 5 MP of a dump, or a hex that is adjacent to the dump (12.3c). Needed supply can be drawn from one or more dumps within range.

cover your question?

If the unit is in a mountain hex adjacent to a supply dump, then it starts its direct draw trace from the unit but can't leave the hex - but the trace still satisfies getting as far as to a hex adjacent to a dump, and so is in supply.


Not really. Look at the option 1 picture at the start of the thread. If hex 41.19 is a mountain hex. I can't count "1" from 41.19 to 41.20. The move is prohibited for truck MA. Therefore, since it's prohibited at the start, I can't continue the count back to the dump.



Precisely. If your understanding that, I'm not seeing your question as being unanswered.


The difficulty is in the first count. From the origin hex to the next hex. In no other system I know, is the origin hex terrain a consideration. It's always the terrain, or hexside, of the destination hex that is considered when incurring the first MP. Now I'm being told that in OCS, origin hex terrain must be considered before starting a count.

John Kisner wrote this over at CSW Forum and which was causing me all my confusion;

"Using Direct Draw, you are correct that a unit in a mountain hex cannot exit the hex using supply's Truck MA. However, if there is Supply in an adjacent hex, the unit can still draw from there."

What I think he meant to say was;

"Using Direct Draw, you are correct that a unit in a mountain hex cannot exit the hex using supply's Truck MA. However, if there is Supply DUMP in an adjacent hex, the unit can still draw from there."


So the answer is: all units in a mountain hex are NEVER in supply if using direct draw (exception: mountain road or if the supply dump itself is adjacent)
 
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Tankboy
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That's all one and the same to my mind. If there is supply (by way of HQ throw) or a Supply Dump that is adjacent, then your Unit may draw/receive supply. Truck MP, in this case, is not considered, other than required by HQ throw, which is then "not drawing" supply.
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Gordon G
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Fly by Night wrote:
That's all one and the same to my mind. If there is supply (by way of HQ throw) or a Supply Dump that is adjacent, then your Unit may draw/receive supply. Truck MP, in this case, is not considered, other than required by HQ throw, which is then "not drawing" supply.


Bottom Line; if you're in a mountain hex using Direct Draw, and there is no supply dump adjacent, you're screwed.
 
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Bill Lawson
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GordoMG wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
That's all one and the same to my mind. If there is supply (by way of HQ throw) or a Supply Dump that is adjacent, then your Unit may draw/receive supply. Truck MP, in this case, is not considered, other than required by HQ throw, which is then "not drawing" supply.


Bottom Line; if you're in a mountain hex using Direct Draw, and there is no supply dump adjacent, you're screwed.


Yup. You need an HQ to throw and even than you can't go two hexes deep into a mountain (unless you have a mule with some supply).
 
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GordoMG wrote:
Fly by Night wrote:
That's all one and the same to my mind. If there is supply (by way of HQ throw) or a Supply Dump that is adjacent, then your Unit may draw/receive supply. Truck MP, in this case, is not considered, other than required by HQ throw, which is then "not drawing" supply.


Bottom Line; if you're in a mountain hex using Direct Draw, and there is no supply dump adjacent, you're screwed.


True statement. Was there ever any doubt? You do have the option of air dropping supply if your dead set on moving units in that way.
 
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