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Subject: What's new in GoodCritters rss

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Fabian Zimmermann
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GoodCritters was original released as Tiefe Taschen. But there are some changes:

1.) Theme
Tiefe Taschen: The players are corrupt politicians. The president is distributing money.
GoodCritters: The players are criminal animals. The boss is distributing loot.

2.) Money cards
Tiefe Taschen: money cards with values from 1 to 5
GoodCritters: loot cards with values from 2 to 5

We removed the 1's from the money stack, so the game is less luck driven. When take money from treasury or blackmail the factor between the lowest and the highest card is reduced from 5 to 2.5.

3.) Money distributed by president
Tiefe Taschen: The president draws number of players cards to distribute
GoodCritters: The boss draws number of players plus two cards to distribute

Tiefe Taschen forces the president to be unfair, since often there is no even distribution possible. In GoodCritters it is the explicit decision of the Boss to be mean or not. This also means that there are more loot cards in GoodCritters (140) than money cards in Tiefe Taschen (90)

4.) Tie in the vote
Tiefe Taschen: On a tie the distribution was successful and the president stays in charge
GoodCritters: On a tie the distribution was successful, but another player becomes the next boss

Especially in a four players game of Tiefe Taschen the situation often gets static. The president only needs to find one other player to vote with him , and he stays president forever. Thats why I already introduced this as optional rule Well-Regulated Replacement in Tiefe Taschen.


5.) Stay in play after resigning
Tiefe Taschen: Presidents stay out of player after resigning on a failed vote till the money is finally distributed. If multiple distributions are rejected in a row the money is only distributed between few players.
GoodCritters: After a rejected distribution another player becomes boss, but the old boss stays in play. The new boss draws two additional cards.

In Tiefe Taschen a rejected distribution means the same amount of money for less players. In GoodCritters it means more money for the same amount of players. Since the new boss had voted with no on the rejected distribution, he was probably not happy with the former boss. So the old boss is not penalized by the game, but by the new boss. I was very skeptical, when this change was proposed, but I really like it, since all players are now always involved in the game.

6.) Bribing
Tiefe Taschen: There are tokens for binding bribes with vote yes/vote anything but yes and vote no/vote anything but no. All bribing is done with these tokens. Only one money card can be used per bribe token.
GoodCritters: There is more freedom in bribing. Basically everything is allowed in bribing. Players can bribe and promise everything, but nothing is binding. For binding bribes there are two bribe tokens with vote yes/vote no. There are extra 1's that can be used for bribing. And bribing is now optional.

The anything but yes token was confusing for some players. So we removed it. In general, bribing is not used very often in Tiefe Taschen, since it is relative expensive. In GoodCritters we introduced the 1's to be able to bribe the amount, players want to bribe. And make bribing more attractive.

7.) setup
Tiefe Taschen: There is a ruler on the game end card (National Bankruptcy) for its position in the money deck
GoodCritters: There a rules where to put the game end card (The Fuzz) into the loot deck

Since many players sleeve there cards the ruler doesn't work for them. But when players are familiar with the game they can just put the game end card somewhere into the deck without measure or calculate its position.
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Garth Aceru
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This is all great information! I'm looking to getting this version -- my community absolutely loves Tiefe Taschen.
fobs wrote:

GoodCritters: There is more freedom in bribing. Basically everything is allowed in bribing. Players can bribe and promise everything, but nothing is binding. For binding bribes there are two bribe tokens with vote yes/vote no. There are extra 1's that can be used for bribing. And bribing is now optional.

The anything but yes token was confusing for some players. So we removed it. In general, bribing is not used very often in Tiefe Taschen, since it is relative expensive. In GoodCritters we introduced the 1's to be able to bribe the amount, players want to bribe. And make bribing more attractive.

I don't understand -- are 1's in the game, or not? Or are they just distributed via a different mechanism than the money pile?
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Fabian Zimmermann
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ftobin wrote:

I don't understand -- are 1's in the game, or not? Or are they just distributed via a different mechanism than the money pile?


The 1's have a different shape than the other loot cards and are kept separate from the rest. They are only used for bribing. As an optional rule players start with 5 of the 1's each.
This should encourage bribing since players have low amounts available, and giving away low cards doesn't make your deck more attractive for blackmail.
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Spieler Gott
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My opinion/questions...

fobs wrote:
GoodCritters was original released as Tiefe Taschen. But there are some changes:

1.) Theme
Tiefe Taschen: The players are corrupt politicians. The president is distributing money.
GoodCritters: The players are criminal animals. The boss is distributing loot.


Why did you change the theme? The theme fits perfect and is part of the fun and laughter. Everybody can accuse each other to be greedy and corrupt politicians. Now you have a generic, kids-friendly cartoon animals theme. Totally boring for me.

fobs wrote:

2.) Money cards
Tiefe Taschen: money cards with values from 1 to 5
GoodCritters: loot cards with values from 2 to 5

We removed the 1's from the money stack, so the game is less luck driven. When take money from treasury or blackmail the factor between the lowest and the highest card is reduced from 5 to 2.5.


I don't get your 5 to 2.5 difference.

fobs wrote:

5.) Stay in play after resigning
Tiefe Taschen: Presidents stay out of player after resigning on a failed vote till the money is finally distributed. If multiple distributions are rejected in a row the money is only distributed between few players.
GoodCritters: After a rejected distribution another player becomes boss, but the old boss stays in play. The new boss draws two additional cards.

In Tiefe Taschen a rejected distribution means the same amount of money for less players. In GoodCritters it means more money for the same amount of players. Since the new boss had voted with no on the rejected distribution, he was probably not happy with the former boss. So the old boss is not penalized by the game, but by the new boss. I was very skeptical, when this change was proposed, but I really like it, since all players are now always involved in the game.


Quote:
So the old boss is penalized by the new boss.

How is he penalized?
I think the old way is better. It makes the decision of distribution much more difficult for the president. It is a small path wether to be too mean to get deselected or not. Means more pressure for the president how to distribute.
And for Goodcritters... how can you avoid that the selection of the presidents won't go on and on and on till the deck runs out of cards?

fobs wrote:

6.) Bribing
Tiefe Taschen: There are tokens for binding bribes with vote yes/vote anything but yes and vote no/vote anything but no. All bribing is done with these tokens. Only one money card can be used per bribe token.
GoodCritters: There is more freedom in bribing. Basically everything is allowed in bribing. Players can bribe and promise everything, but nothing is binding. For binding bribes there are two bribe tokens with vote yes/vote no. There are extra 1's that can be used for bribing. And bribing is now optional.

The anything but yes token was confusing for some players. So we removed it. In general, bribing is not used very often in Tiefe Taschen, since it is relative expensive. In GoodCritters we introduced the 1's to be able to bribe the amount, players want to bribe. And make bribing more attractive.


Free bribing is cool, but how can you keep track of who promised what to whom if you have many players and many bribes in your game?
For me the system of TT was a little bit more restricted, but you could better keep track of.


Final note. The material quality is much better in TT. Wooden tokens and meeples instead of cardboard counters and tokens.
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Fabian Zimmermann
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kackarschen wrote:
Why did you change the theme? The theme fits perfect and is part of the fun and laughter. Everybody can accuse each other to be greedy and corrupt politicians. Now you have a generic, kids-friendly cartoon animals theme. Totally boring for me.

I had Tiefe Taschen with the theme I originally liked most. For GoodCritters Arcane Wonders wanted a more family friendly game to reach a wider audience. I really love their choice, but I understand that some players prefer the original, more controversial theme.

kackarschen wrote:
I don't get your 5 to 2.5 difference.

In Tiefe Taschen the lowest card is a 1 and the highest card is a 5. The highest card is 5 times higher than the lowest. In GoodCritters the lowest card is a 2, but the highest card is still a 5. The 5 is 2.5 times higher than the 2. So the variance when drawing cards is reduced, and so there is less luck in the game.

kackarschen wrote:
How is he penalized?

The new boss had to vote against the distribution to become the next boss in case of a rejection. This often (not always) happens when he was not happy with his share of the proposed and rejected distribution. Thus, he often takes revenge and proposes a distribution with no or few loot for the former boss.

kackarschen wrote:
I think the old way is better. It makes the decision of distribution much more difficult for the president. It is a small path wether to be too mean to get deselected or not. Means more pressure for the president how to distribute.

I was first very skeptical when this change was proposed, but after some playtests I was convinced and like the new mechanism more than the original, since players stay in play all the time.

kackarschen wrote:
And for Goodcritters... how can you avoid that the selection of the presidents won't go on and on and on till the deck runs out of cards?

Usually after some rejections there is enough loot to propose a distribution that is eventually accepted by enough players, but this can happen. Then the player, who did well in skimming and blackmailing during the rejections, wins the game.

kackarschen wrote:
Free bribing is cool, but how can you keep track of who promised what to whom if you have many players and many bribes in your game?
For me the system of TT was a little bit more restricted, but you could better keep track of.

The new bribing system still has two tokens with yes/no on it for binding bribes. Other bribes are now allowed, but they are not binding.


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Pablo Ebb

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I was pleasantly surprised that this new version of Tiefe Taschen is going to be published. I pre-ordered the game. Thanks for taking time to post the differences and improvements; that was the deciding factor for my purchase. All the best with this game. I can't wait to play it when it arrives in September!!
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Jordan B.
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Were these changes playtested by the Dice Tower guys? I know it’s in their essentials like and Tom loved the original, so I’m curious.
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Fabian Zimmermann
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rbf1138 wrote:
Were these changes playtested by the Dice Tower guys? I know it’s in their essentials like and Tom loved the original, so I’m curious.

I discussed one of the changes (new boss after a tie) with Tom at Essen 2017. I tested the changes with many people in Germany and also on a prototype testing weekend in Italy, but Arcane Wonders also did lots of playtests.
 
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Bryle Cuff
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I noticed Tom didn't mention anything about the new rules in his review. I found that really strange.
 
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Fabian Zimmermann
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Bryle wrote:
I noticed Tom didn't mention anything about the new rules in his review. I found that really strange.

I think this video was not the right place to compare both games in detail, since it should give an overview of GoodCritters. But Tom knows all new rules and he has explained everything correctly.
 
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fobs wrote:


4.) Tie in the vote
Tiefe Taschen: On a tie the distribution was successful and the president stays in charge
GoodCritters: On a tie the distribution was successful, but another player becomes the next boss

Especially in a four players game of Tiefe Taschen the situation often gets static. The president only needs to find one other player to vote with him , and he stays president forever. Thats why I already introduced this as optional rule Well-Regulated Replacement in Tiefe Taschen.



You're reason for changing the rule only references a 4p game. So why not keep the rule the same as in Tiefe Taschen, and just make an exception for the 4p game?
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Fabian Zimmermann
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The original game could become a little bit too static with one or only a few presidents. This occurred more often in a 4p game.

So we need to change it, especially for the 4p, where the problem was obvious. But also with other player counts having several bosses during one play was more fun.

And from the design point of view, I think, it is not very elegant to have fundamentally different rules for different player counts. A different setup is okay, having different rules for in a game with a 2p or solo variant also, but from 4 to 5 ...
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