Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
61 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Eclipse: Second Dawn for the Galaxy» Forums » Crowdfunding

Subject: Please Travis, do something! rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Thiago Bittencourt
Brazil
flag msg tools
As a huge eclipse fan, it saddens me to see how this campaign is unravelling.
I was hoping for a world-shaking project, an Ultimate Eclipse box, with all the first edition content streamlined and rebalanced, new species, new scenarios, new game modes, etc...
The fact that TI4 launched so closely, and met all the expectations, just hyped eclipse 2 even more.
And then, bit by bit, piece by piece, the negativity started. Every piece of information you gave was taken with criticism. The trays, the player board, the cubes, the graphic design, the lack of an upgrade pack, and so on.
Everybody was mainly excited, but thinking "something is not right..."
And then the ks was launched, and... I can surely say that I'm happy not being you! Things have gotten out of hand, and emotional responses sprayed on the fóruns... It's not pretty and I'm sure everybody wanted it to be different.
And then here we are. I'm gonna confess, I am obsessively following the BGG posts and KS comments with morbid curiosity and initially I blamed you for the derrailling. (I know the project if funded, but let's be honest: you had better nights of sleep than this week's!)

Reading some of your responses, though, made me realize that you are not the bad guy. You know what you're doing, and suddenly found yourself in this uncomfortable situation. You are just the middleman, with limited powers to course-correct this campaign. A saddled horse, running in a muddy place, with Lautapelit/Touko on top. They tell you where to go, and you are the one who gets dirt.

So, I'm writing this to plea you: do something! Try to make them understand! Even if this so-so campaign is in fact their vision, and I doubt it, try your best to show them that this muddy road goes nowhere! Or, at least, there is a much better place to go, if they follow another direction!

I know that I'm sounding entitled (the buzzword of the moment), but I know that I'm not alone feeling that the new Eclipse doesn't deserve that mixed reactions campaign. It deserves so more! Please, I know they want to reset the game, start anew, expand from there...
But this is not the fresh start Eclipse deserves! It have to be Ultimate! Please let them know and at least consider that!

And sorry about misjudging you.

From a concerned fan.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Boardgame Aesthete
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think the campaign is "unraveling" and it's hard to imagine what Travis could say to change the minds of the critics, other than announce that they're scrapping the campaign and relaunching it. Which clearly is not going to happen.

Given that even mild "Thanks for your concern" responses to persistent trolls get people angrily declaring that they are cancelling their pledges, I can understand the relative silence.

The campaign is doing fine. It may not be the blockbuster everyone (including the publishers) were hoping for, but it's not a failure by a long stretch.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I love the passion. And I appreciate the kindness. However, reissuing all the old content, including all of it, is not the vision of the creators. Literal years of work from the people that brought you this game you love so much have went into this. I totally understand it is not what some people want, but it is what the creators want. And it absolutely includes the feedback from the fans, applied to the game, its contents, etc.

Second Dawn's name says it all. This is a new breath of life for the game, a new direction. This campaign is not incomplete; it's re-imagined, leaner, not shackled to the release contents from which it derived.

I can say, for certain, that this will not change during this campaign. It's the vision for the game's future. But rest assured, just like feedback factored into changes for this new core experience, I feel confident the feedback from this campaign will be applied to future content.
33 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis C
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Kolossal wrote:
I love the passion. And I appreciate the kindness. However, reissuing all the old content, including all of it, is not the vision of the creators. Literal years of work from the people that brought you this game you love so much have went into this. I totally understand it is not what some people want, but it is what the creators want. And it absolutely includes the feedback from the fans, applied to the game, its contents, etc.

Second Dawn's name says it all. This is a new breath of life for the game, a new direction. This campaign is not incomplete; it's re-imagined, leaner, not shackled to the release contents from which it derived.

I can say, for certain, that this will not change during this campaign. It's the vision for the game's future. But rest assured, just like feedback factored into changes for this new core experience, I feel confident the feedback from this campaign will be applied to future content.


Thanks for the reply, Travis! In a post some time ago you'd mentioned that you guys were working on something for 1E backers. Are there any more details as to what that might be? I understand that it won't be new races or other old content, but I'm curious as to what you guys had in mind. Thanks so much!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander
Germany
Duisburg
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
first of all, my first impression of this campaign wasn't good either. but looking at what they offer and reading what kind of improvements they have made, I am pretty sure this is the ultimate version of the game.

- they have improved the visuals,
- they have improved on the miniatures (including ship pack one and adding models for other components)
- they say they have put years of work in rebalancing every aspect of the game (races, sectors, technologies), which I would say is the most important part
- they have included much of the expansion content (not the races, I know shake)

I can honestly say I am happy to have sold my first edition and I am very much looking forward to looking at the new cover (hopefully), opening the box for the first time, looking at all the visual improvements and then experiencing all the game play improvements on my first play through as well.

Their marketing strategy was not perfect. I was underwhelmed by old content being stretch goals and seeing only few obvious improvements (you cannot really see the balance changes after all). But I am sure the game is what it should be.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Elia - "Rainbow Hippie" Acca
Italy
Bergamo
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LX1986 wrote:
first of all, my first impression of this campaign wasn't good either. but looking at what they offer and reading what kind of improvements they have made, I am pretty sure this is the ultimate version of the game.

- they have improved the visuals,
- they have improved on the miniatures (including ship pack one and adding models for other components)
- they say they have put years of work in rebalancing every aspect of the game (races, sectors, technologies), which I would say is the most important part
- they have included much of the expansion content (not the races, I know shake)

I can honestly say I am happy to have sold my first edition and I am very much looking forward to looking at the new cover (hopefully), opening the box for the first time, looking at all the visual improvements and then experiencing all the game play improvements on my first play through as well.

Their marketing strategy was not perfect. I was underwhelmed by old content being stretch goals and seeing only few obvious improvements (you cannot really see the balance changes after all). But I am sure the game is what it should be.



They have also almost doubled the MSRP, which sort of works against this new edition, unfortunately.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Accatitippi wrote:
LX1986 wrote:
first of all, my first impression of this campaign wasn't good either. but looking at what they offer and reading what kind of improvements they have made, I am pretty sure this is the ultimate version of the game.

- they have improved the visuals,
- they have improved on the miniatures (including ship pack one and adding models for other components)
- they say they have put years of work in rebalancing every aspect of the game (races, sectors, technologies), which I would say is the most important part
- they have included much of the expansion content (not the races, I know shake)

I can honestly say I am happy to have sold my first edition and I am very much looking forward to looking at the new cover (hopefully), opening the box for the first time, looking at all the visual improvements and then experiencing all the game play improvements on my first play through as well.

Their marketing strategy was not perfect. I was underwhelmed by old content being stretch goals and seeing only few obvious improvements (you cannot really see the balance changes after all). But I am sure the game is what it should be.



They have also almost doubled the MSRP, which sort of works against this new edition, unfortunately.


It has far more content and far nicer components. The basic pledge level is the same as the original MSRP: $99. We cannot base off of decreased cost from third party sellers, etc.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
to_mars wrote:
Kolossal wrote:
I love the passion. And I appreciate the kindness. However, reissuing all the old content, including all of it, is not the vision of the creators. Literal years of work from the people that brought you this game you love so much have went into this. I totally understand it is not what some people want, but it is what the creators want. And it absolutely includes the feedback from the fans, applied to the game, its contents, etc.

Second Dawn's name says it all. This is a new breath of life for the game, a new direction. This campaign is not incomplete; it's re-imagined, leaner, not shackled to the release contents from which it derived.

I can say, for certain, that this will not change during this campaign. It's the vision for the game's future. But rest assured, just like feedback factored into changes for this new core experience, I feel confident the feedback from this campaign will be applied to future content.


Thanks for the reply, Travis! In a post some time ago you'd mentioned that you guys were working on something for 1E backers. Are there any more details as to what that might be? I understand that it won't be new races or other old content, but I'm curious as to what you guys had in mind. Thanks so much!


I can confirm the expansion races will not be in this campaign. Expect that for future content. Just like the original core edition, this new core edition does not include those races. We know some people want to see them, but they are untested and not ready.

As far as the upgrade kit, it works against the notion of Second Dawn being the new core edition. Totally understand fans spent money on the prior edition. That edition still works and likely has provided many hours of entertainment and great experiences. And it has been almost 8 years since its original release, which for many is a long lifespan.

This edition has substantial changes to basically every type of content imaginable, which is what constitutes the need for a new core edition. Offering piecemealed parts to create a hybrid edition is far more complex than it sounds and ultimately is not the vision for the game. Eclipse NEw Dawn and Second Dawn are just not entirely the same. Second Dawn uses all of the knowledge to make a better more robust game in every way imaginable.

Some might think this is a cash grab, but if those people only understood the amount of work that has been put into Second Dawn--and using the feedback of the fans to improve the game. This is an expensive, heavy-to-ship, beautifully made game in every way imaginable. No one is obligated to support this campaign at all. We understand some are not seeing things they wanted to see, but as I have said in other threads, it makes sense to trust the creators that brought us all the game we love so much.

Kolossal continues to work with the creators where possible, but the truth is what you see is the vision of those creators. It is a vision Kolossal supports, not only as partners but also as fans.
20 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geoff

Los Angeles
California
msg tools
badge
Sacramento will never be the capital of California. Los Angeles is the new capital of California. CAN YOU DIG IT?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kolossal wrote:
to_mars wrote:
Kolossal wrote:
I love the passion. And I appreciate the kindness. However, reissuing all the old content, including all of it, is not the vision of the creators. Literal years of work from the people that brought you this game you love so much have went into this. I totally understand it is not what some people want, but it is what the creators want. And it absolutely includes the feedback from the fans, applied to the game, its contents, etc.

Second Dawn's name says it all. This is a new breath of life for the game, a new direction. This campaign is not incomplete; it's re-imagined, leaner, not shackled to the release contents from which it derived.

I can say, for certain, that this will not change during this campaign. It's the vision for the game's future. But rest assured, just like feedback factored into changes for this new core experience, I feel confident the feedback from this campaign will be applied to future content.


Thanks for the reply, Travis! In a post some time ago you'd mentioned that you guys were working on something for 1E backers. Are there any more details as to what that might be? I understand that it won't be new races or other old content, but I'm curious as to what you guys had in mind. Thanks so much!


I can confirm the expansion races will not be in this campaign. Expect that for future content. Just like the original core edition, this new core edition does not include those races. We know some people want to see them, but they are untested and not ready.

As far as the upgrade kit, it works against the notion of Second Dawn being the new core edition. Totally understand fans spent money on the prior edition. That edition still works and likely has provided many hours of entertainment and great experiences. And it has been almost 8 years since its original release, which for many is a long lifespan.

This edition has substantial changes to basically every type of content imaginable, which is what constitutes the need for a new core edition. Offering piecemealed parts to create a hybrid edition is far more complex than it sounds and ultimately is not the vision for the game. Eclipse NEw Dawn and Second Dawn are just not entirely the same. Second Dawn uses all of the knowledge to make a better more robust game in every way imaginable.

Some might think this is a cash grab, but if those people only understood the amount of work that has been put into Second Dawn--and using the feedback of the fans to improve the game. This is an expensive, heavy-to-ship, beautifully made game in every way imaginable. No one is obligated to support this campaign at all. We understand some are not seeing things they wanted to see, but as I have said in other threads, it makes sense to trust the creators that brought us all the game we love so much.

Kolossal continues to work with the creators where possible, but the truth is what you see is the vision of those creators. It is a vision Kolossal supports, not only as partners but also as fans.


So while you looked into doing something for 1E owners, ultimately, nothing could be done? Not upset but just want clarification so people can stop wondering/hoping/expecting something.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BG.EXE
United States
flag msg tools
I favor Euros, but I like pretty much all games.
badge
Make the kinds of posts you want to read.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Accatitippi wrote:
They have also almost doubled the MSRP, which sort of works against this new edition, unfortunately.

The MSRP of Eclipse is I believe $100. I paid $90 when I got my first copy. This is $99 now. Even at retail it's not double, and you get a loooooooooooot more here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
geoffropuff wrote:
Kolossal wrote:
to_mars wrote:
Kolossal wrote:
I love the passion. And I appreciate the kindness. However, reissuing all the old content, including all of it, is not the vision of the creators. Literal years of work from the people that brought you this game you love so much have went into this. I totally understand it is not what some people want, but it is what the creators want. And it absolutely includes the feedback from the fans, applied to the game, its contents, etc.

Second Dawn's name says it all. This is a new breath of life for the game, a new direction. This campaign is not incomplete; it's re-imagined, leaner, not shackled to the release contents from which it derived.

I can say, for certain, that this will not change during this campaign. It's the vision for the game's future. But rest assured, just like feedback factored into changes for this new core experience, I feel confident the feedback from this campaign will be applied to future content.


Thanks for the reply, Travis! In a post some time ago you'd mentioned that you guys were working on something for 1E backers. Are there any more details as to what that might be? I understand that it won't be new races or other old content, but I'm curious as to what you guys had in mind. Thanks so much!


I can confirm the expansion races will not be in this campaign. Expect that for future content. Just like the original core edition, this new core edition does not include those races. We know some people want to see them, but they are untested and not ready.

As far as the upgrade kit, it works against the notion of Second Dawn being the new core edition. Totally understand fans spent money on the prior edition. That edition still works and likely has provided many hours of entertainment and great experiences. And it has been almost 8 years since its original release, which for many is a long lifespan.

This edition has substantial changes to basically every type of content imaginable, which is what constitutes the need for a new core edition. Offering piecemealed parts to create a hybrid edition is far more complex than it sounds and ultimately is not the vision for the game. Eclipse NEw Dawn and Second Dawn are just not entirely the same. Second Dawn uses all of the knowledge to make a better more robust game in every way imaginable.

Some might think this is a cash grab, but if those people only understood the amount of work that has been put into Second Dawn--and using the feedback of the fans to improve the game. This is an expensive, heavy-to-ship, beautifully made game in every way imaginable. No one is obligated to support this campaign at all. We understand some are not seeing things they wanted to see, but as I have said in other threads, it makes sense to trust the creators that brought us all the game we love so much.

Kolossal continues to work with the creators where possible, but the truth is what you see is the vision of those creators. It is a vision Kolossal supports, not only as partners but also as fans.


So while you looked into doing something for 1E owners, ultimately, nothing could be done? Not upset but just want clarification so people can stop wondering/hoping/expecting something.


With regard to an update pack pledge, this is not planned for this campaign.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leon
Germany
Passau
Bavaria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dodging the question as usual...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl B
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Travis, they are referring to the comment by AJ here:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/29491134#29491134

I'm guessing that whatever was being considered didn't pan out.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leon
Germany
Passau
Bavaria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CarlB wrote:
Travis, they are referring to the comment by AJ here:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/29491134#29491134

I'm guessing that whatever was being considered didn't pan out.


That's the one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Telrak wrote:
Dodging the question as usual...


I have been direct, honest, and forthcoming. As of today, when we spoke with the creators, this was still a no. That is the information I have at my disposal, which I am relaying.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leon
Germany
Passau
Bavaria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kolossal wrote:
Telrak wrote:
Dodging the question as usual...


I have been direct, honest, and forthcoming. As of today, when we spoke with the creators, this was still a no. That is the information I have at my disposal, which I am relaying.


The question was, what this comment was about:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/29491134#29491134
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Young
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Travis, your answers here and in the KS updates are quite frustrating because you're not directly answering the exact question.
For ex. This quote from July 10, 2018 (multiple links in above posts):
Hensharo wrote:
Kolossal and Lauatpelit are reading through all the comments and we're working on something for 1E backers. More details will be revealed soon.

We just want to know exactly what you were working on for 1E backers. In your past several posts, you haven't answered that.
You keep saying the upgrade pack won't happen, but that's not what we asked here. We're asking what were you working on?

You're KS updates are similarly frustrating. That's why there's still so many questions after your updates. You're not directly answering the exact questions.

We're taking the time to ask questions.
You're taking the time to give answers.
But you're not answering the questions.
It's driving people crazy.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian C
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Travis,

Please don’t feed the trolls! You’ve clearly answered their question and whatever you say will be the next “gotcha” quote pasted over and over again in the next 100 threads...

Most of us appreciate your efforts, but don’t think anything you say will make these jerks stop...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Young
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Propbuddha wrote:
Travis,

You’ve clearly answered their question

Brian, where in the above posts has he answered what they were working on for 1E backers?
Hensharo wrote:
Kolossal and Lauatpelit are reading through all the comments and we're working on something for 1E backers. More details will be revealed soon.

Travis keeps repeating the same thing about upgrade kits, but didn't answer the question.

IF they were working on upgrade kits, just say "we were working on upgrade kits but it didn't work out for these reasons...."

It is painful and frustrating talking to someone who gives non-answers because we have to go through these multiple postings to get a simple answer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis R. Chance
United States
Fishers
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jrigkvn1229 wrote:
Propbuddha wrote:
Travis,

You’ve clearly answered their question

Brian, where in the above posts has he answered what they were working on for 1E backers?
Hensharo wrote:
Kolossal and Lauatpelit are reading through all the comments and we're working on something for 1E backers. More details will be revealed soon.

Travis keeps repeating the same thing about upgrade kits, but didn't answer the question.

IF they were working on upgrade kits, just say "we were working on upgrade kits but it didn't work out for these reasons...."

It is painful and frustrating talking to someone who gives non-answers because we have to go through these multiple postings to get a simple answer.


I do not how to state this more clearly. I understand it is not what some people want. As I have stated, Kolossal is the marketing arm for this game. As of today's discussion, there is no forthcoming update pack/pledge.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CardBoard Bear

California
msg tools
mbmbmb

I think the disconnect is that Kolossal sees itself as a marketer for Laupelit, not a kickstarter creator.

However, normally a ks campaign is managed by either the game designer or the publisher of the game, who did not design the game but still is responsible for publishing,and is therefore not merely a marketer. Therefore people expect answers and knowledge that a designer or publisher would have, and get frustrated with the marketer. The marketer can only repeat what they have been told by the designer, and nothing more.

Hence the disconnect.

You may think that I'm excusing Kolossal but I'm not. Because they are listed as the ks creator on the ks project page for Eclipse. Ks rules are very clear: the creator (Kolossal) is responsible for the project, is entering a contract with the backers, and is ultimately responsible for delivering the rewards. The creator being just a "marketer" with no responsibility to fulfill the project (and hence no direct knowledge of things for which a designer or publisher would be privy to) is not something that agrees with the ks rules.



2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl B
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
jrigkvn1229 wrote:
Propbuddha wrote:
Travis,

You’ve clearly answered their question

Brian, where in the above posts has he answered what they were working on for 1E backers?
Hensharo wrote:
Kolossal and Lauatpelit are reading through all the comments and we're working on something for 1E backers. More details will be revealed soon.

Travis keeps repeating the same thing about upgrade kits, but didn't answer the question.

IF they were working on upgrade kits, just say "we were working on upgrade kits but it didn't work out for these reasons...."

It is painful and frustrating talking to someone who gives non-answers because we have to go through these multiple postings to get a simple answer.


It seems obvious that whatever they were working on didn't pan out. That's all they can tell us at this point. What more do you want?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Abrams
United States
The Colony
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jrigkvn1229 wrote:
But you're not answering the questions.


He is. You're just not accepting the answers.

He clearly took backer feedback to them, and told backers he was going to, then fought for an upgrade pack, and it just didn't work out financially, logistically, or for whatever reason. So now he's saying that it won't happen. He can't say he tried, because that throws his client under the bus, which is unprofessional. He can't say it will never happen, because he can't see the future. He can say they evaluated it together, and as of now there are no plans. And he has said that. Repeatedly. But you refuse to hear it.

It's like some of you don't get that when you are nothing but hostile, you will be treated as hostile. Direct answers that aren't 100% locked down are turned against him and used as weapons and to call him a liar. So he has to give direct answers couched in caveats, but then you say he's not answering at all. You are the communications problem here, not him. He's doing a remarkable job in the face of this. Your just flat refusal to hear answers you don't like is poisoning the potential for actual communication or discussion.

Angry Backers: "What are the odds of there being an upgrade kit?"
Travis: "There is no upgrade kit planned. We looked at it, and it just won't happen"
Angry Backers: "but what are the *odds*? why won't you answer the question?"
Travis: "It's not going to happen. The odds are like a million to one."
Angry Backers: "so you're telling me there's a chance"
Travis: "*headdesk* no. there's no chance."
Angry Backers (2 hours later): "wheres my upgrade kit? you promised an upgrade kit!"
26 
 Thumb up
1.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis C
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I certainly didn't intend to troll or raise the armies. Sorry for doing so. I know there was no upgrade kit or expansion races. I guess my question was more if there was anything else going to be revealed that might appeal to 1E backers like the minor species module or any other new mechanics. It looks like the answer is no, which is okay. There's a lot here. I was just wondering if there were any more reveals coming up. Thanks again, Travis!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Martineau
United States
Plano
Texas
flag msg tools
Maybe I'll just stay home and play KDM.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
He is failing to answer the question of what that specific comment is about or was referencing.

It sounds like the answer is, "That comment was about an upgrade kit and we decided against it (because we think you'll just rebuy the whole thing)."


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.