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Subject: war of attrition wears down any confederate defence rss

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Sir Tobey
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Hello,

yesterday I played FtP with a friend, he the CSA and I the Union. I enjoy the wide scale strategic choices the game offers: the naval warfare, the west, the forts etc...

But at one point all of that gets broken: Any game comes down to the fact that the Union has enough SP to attack Richmond three to five times a turn an just white bleed the defenders. I read around in the forum about the topic and the strategic articles. Sure you cannot take Richmond as the Union since you`re loosing all ties and have bad drm`s. But this doesn`t help if the Union inflicts large battles three times or more in a turn and therefor simply annihilating the AoNV. If the AoNV is down to 4 SP two Medium battles with favourable force ratio drm`s won`t change the result. Even an 8 SP strong AoNV would not survive that. And bringing up the AoNV to that strength was nearly impossible, it has been 6 SP most times. I have no idea to prevent that, if the AoNV avoids large battles, the Union gets their drm`s which in return means higher losses. If you fight large battle you loose either. And activition restrictions to the Union aren`t any help. Pope or Burnside won`t have trouble to get the AoP actvated around at least 4 times a turn. And later on Grant will take the command, he will show up in Richmond every card play.

I hope to find some help here around, since the described situation really took away the joy I had playing the game.
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Jon Gautier

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The game is very well balanced, as years of tournaments have shown. There are many options for CSA victory, both for short games and long games. I recommend you find a good CSA player to clean your clock a few times to help you figure it out. If you can’t do that, try looking at ACTS game logs. Look for CSA games played by Pei, Docktor, Pettus, Golding, Thornsen.
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Dave Rubin
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You might try the strategy articles at

http://markherman.tripod.com/ftphome.html
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One of the few criticism the game has received is, precisely, how well balanced it is in the end and the ocassional raids here and there by the South.

IMO the game succeeds in taking you to either leader's shoes and be faced with tough decisions almost every turn. My impression is that the South must be aggressive from the start and keep feinting all the time without committing all his forces..

You want less balance? Try CV from VG, very different yet as loved as FtP.
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Sir Tobey
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I didn´t want to say the game is inbalanced. But on that kind of attrition warfare I cannot find the southern counterweight. A large battle inflicts 3 Sp losses on a CRT result of 4 (+2drm for two 1-1 Generals and a die roll of greater than 1). So in four attacks you wear down 12 SP, this is almost the whole reinforcements the CSA gets. So if not worn down in a single turn it will be the next one...

The strategy articles I have read already but they couldn`t help me with that problem.

Where can I find some tournament logfiles of the said players?
 
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Mark Herman
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Wolf 359 wrote:
I didn´t want to say the game is inbalanced. But on that kind of attrition warfare I cannot find the southern counterweight. A large battle inflicts 3 Sp losses on a CRT result of 4 (+2drm for two 1-1 Generals and a die roll of greater than 1). So in four attacks you wear down 12 SP, this is almost the whole reinforcements the CSA gets. So if not worn down in a single turn it will be the next one...

The strategy articles I have read already but they couldn`t help me with that problem.

Where can I find some tournament logfiles of the said players?


Sounds like Grant battering into Richmond. Not sure how you got here but if early in War it’s rare.
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Sir Tobey
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Not in the early game but if Pope is used as Commander of the AoP to get the army activated frequently this can happen from turn 4 on until Grant is placed in command.

And Grant? I never figuered out how to fight an AoP under his command. I know the articles suggest to interrupt the LOC. If the AoP captures Aquaia Creek or Urbana on the way to Richmond this won`t work. Also I often lack the SP`s for a corps move and thus leave the AoNV with six or less SP, which makes it vulnerable to the said endless attacks.

I don`t want to complain me about the game or the balance, if it sounded that way, I apologize. I, an I just mean myself, cannot find the way to counter Grant or the AoP.

So what would you do Mr. Hermann if Grant is battering into Richmond. (I hope not to ask a question you answered a dozen times anywhere else)
 
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Mark Herman
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Wolf 359 wrote:
Not in the early game but if Pope is used as Commander of the AoP to get the army activated frequently this can happen from turn 4 on until Grant is placed in command.

And Grant? I never figuered out how to fight an AoP under his command. I know the articles suggest to interrupt the LOC. If the AoP captures Aquaia Creek or Urbana on the way to Richmond this won`t work. Also I often lack the SP`s for a corps move and thus leave the AoNV with six or less SP, which makes it vulnerable to the said endless attacks.

I don`t want to complain me about the game or the balance, if it sounded that way, I apologize. I, an I just mean myself, cannot find the way to counter Grant or the AoP.

So what would you do Mr. Hermann if Grant is battering into Richmond. (I hope not to ask a question you answered a dozen times anywhere else)


Your opponents Pope attack can be handled several ways, especially from turn 4 on. Lee plus cavalry and two generals should be able to defeat Pope with at most a +2 attack versus a +5 or better.

If you go to the For the People folder on Consimworld folks can fill in the details, but just play more.

Have fun
Mark
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Sir Tobey
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The drm is clearly favouring the CSA until Grant arrives, sure. But if a union player uses every card play for relentless attacks with Grant in command, how do you defend the AoNV or Richmond while just running out of SP`s?

 
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Jon Gautier

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Here are some ACTS game journals that might give you an idea of good CSA play. Please note I have not read them, I’m just picking players whom I know to be competent.

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=69347

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=69108

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=68517&fil...

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Mark Herman
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Dieroll Honker wrote:
Here are some ACTS game journals that might give you an idea of good CSA play. Please note I have not read them, I’m just picking players whom I know to be competent.

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=69347

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=69108

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=68517&fil...



Thanks Jon, hopefully I'll see you at WBC...

Sir Tobey,

I want to first say that I am very happy to hear your views and your thoughts on this novel strategy. You may be right, however... I have been playing FTP since 1998. This year is the 20th FTP Boardgaming Championship that begins tomorrow. I ran this tournament until two years ago, so I have all the data from 17 years of tournament outcomes.

While it is possible that you and your friend have found an unstoppable early War Union strategy around Pope leading the AoP to victory, I just have not seen it work as you describe.

That is not saying that you are incorrect, but that I am going to seriously look at this strategy. Periodically over the 20 years since the game was published, innovation rears its awesome head and someone comes up with a novel idea. Then the issue is whether there is a counter strategy. Over the last two decades I am happy to say that brilliant play has resulted in exciting changes to the metagame followed each time by a counter strategy. The most recent one was about 5 years ago called the Trade of Queens, a concept discussed by the Union cabinet during the Gettysburg campaign.

To make my research a bit more effective it would be helpful if you were to post the circumstances and conditions for this strategy in a bit more detail with the cards played and the size of the battles with the generals involved. I am intrigued and I say lets take a look.

Personally my best results against the CSA is to be aggressive with the Union prior to Lee, so I have no issue with your basic premise. Can this capture Richmond, sure, but in my experience it is far more difficult than you describe unless the CSA makes mistakes and/or has unusually bad dice over several battles. That said, let's take a look... it will be fun.

I am officially calling this the Union Big Battle Strategy.

I am going to post your strategy over on CSW and I will ask who ever is interested to post over here.

Thanks for taking the time to let me know about your discovery, now we'll have to determine how strong this strategy is over a series of games.

Mark
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Rob Winslow
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If you want to see this strategy defeated, just try it vs. a James Pei-run CSA.
 
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Jon Gautier

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I’ll point out that just because the CSA loses Richmond early does not mean they are out of the game. I’ve lost Richmond early in two different tournament games. In one of them I pulled out a T8 CSA victory, and the other game went the distance before the US won.

The right card combo can make the CSA very weak in the first three turns. For example, no reinforcement or concentration cards for the CSA, combined with a bunch of 1 ops, and lots of reinforcements and 3 ops for the Union.
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Mark Herman
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brandysta wrote:
If you want to see this strategy defeated, just try it vs. a James Pei-run CSA.


As demonstrated by winning the FTP Championship every year but three as augmented by his online tournament play I agree that just about anything a Union player can try against James as the CSA will fail, because he is amazing in ftf play.

That said, can a Union Big Battle strategy succeed against normal FTP humans. I think we should look at this a bit more deeply.

Thanks for coming by Rob...
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Mark Herman
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Dieroll Honker wrote:
I’ll point out that just because the CSA loses Richmond early does not mean they are out of the game. I’ve lost Richmond early in two different tournament games. In one of them I pulled out a T8 CSA victory, and the other game went the distance before the US won.

The right card combo can make the CSA very weak in the first three turns. For example, no reinforcement or concentration cards for the CSA, combined with a bunch of 1 ops, and lots of reinforcements and 3 ops for the Union.


You may recall that David Dockter and I won the last Charles S. Roberts award for our article on early war Union strategy. I need to dig that out and see if Rodger can get it online.

As you say and what was stated in this article: https://www.c3iopscenter.com/documents/For%20the%20People%20...

I discuss a High Mobility Union hand as the "On To Richmond" strategy and why I think this thread has merit. That said, I believe there are strong counters to it and that is the discussion that I want to have, not that it doesn't work, because as you say it can, but is it more significant than the current view.

Mark
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Rob Winslow
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Just bummed I have to miss WBC, again. Have fun, Mark!

My thought with James was, if this is a tough strategy for the CSA to deal with, try it on him and see how he'd deal with it. Although we mere mortals can't emulate him, we could learn some of the basics. cool

(P.S. Loving Ft. Sumter, going to play again tomorrow with my friend also named Mark...)
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Mark Herman
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brandysta wrote:
Just bummed I have to miss WBC, again. Have fun, Mark!

My thought with James was, if this is a tough strategy for the CSA to deal with, try it on him and see how he'd deal with it. Although we mere mortals can't emulate him, we could learn some of the basics. cool

(P.S. Loving Ft. Sumter, going to play again tomorrow with my friend also named Mark...)


I'm sorry I won't see you tomorrow, but I know exactly how you feel. I have missed only one WBC since its inception and it was last year. The consolation for missing it is I was watching my new granddaughter.

Very excited that I leave in the morning.

Thanks for the support for Fort Sumter, please rate it I could use some love over there.

Mark
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John Capobianco
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For what it's worth, in my experience a competent CSA player will take advantage of the Union player's single-minded focus on Richmond to invade either through West Virginia or Kentucky, or possibly a left hook through the valley into Maryland.

There are a lot of things the North needs to do to win the game, and they all involve wearing down the CSA's strategic will. In my experience, the North butting heads against Richmond will result in the opposite effect. Yes, the CSA will be depleted of SPs, but so will the North, and in the process the North will be hemorrhaging strategic will.

In order to win, the CSA needs to do one thing: Not lose.

A sit back and wait strategy certainly will not work for the CSA, but well timed invasions of the North will force the Northern player to either move forces to counter or, if the Northern player remains single-minded, in addition to losing battles around Richmond he/she will lose 5-10 SW (and the South will gain 5-10 SW) for converted Northern states.

I have a regular FtP opponent, and here is how we handled (are handling!) the learning curve: If the CSA player wins a game, then that player's prize for winning is to play the CSA side again in the next game. If the USA wins, then we switch sides. This procedure results in each player having to change their mindset frequently since the strategy for each player is so very different.
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Sir Tobey
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Dieroll Honker wrote:
Here are some ACTS game journals that might give you an idea of good CSA play. Please note I have not read them, I’m just picking players whom I know to be competent.

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=69347

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=69108

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=68517&fil...



Thanks to Jon Gautier for the links and the advice about the players. I started to read them and following through by using vassal. It will take some time. I haven`t got very far already, but so far it is really interesting.

I think I will also follow Mark Hermans advice to play more and so I`m looking for an PBEM match or so. Mostly I played solitaire because it is hard to find opponents in town. I will try out an aggressive attritional Union strategy and see how it works. But this will take some time.


Thanks for all the help.
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Jon Gautier

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I’ll play you if you like. I’m only a mid-level player, but maybe you’ll get some ideas. Send me geek mail if you are interested. I can usually play one or two cards a day. I prefer to use ACTS and not trade game files.
 
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Jonathan F
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Wolf 359 wrote:
Dieroll Honker wrote:
Here are some ACTS game journals that might give you an idea of good CSA play. Please note I have not read them, I’m just picking players whom I know to be competent.

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=69347

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=69108

http://acts.warhorsesim.com/dynamic/journal.asp?id=68517&fil...



Thanks to Jon Gautier for the links and the advice about the players. I started to read them and following through by using vassal. It will take some time. I haven`t got very far already, but so far it is really interesting.

I think I will also follow Mark Hermans advice to play more and so I`m looking for an PBEM match or so. Mostly I played solitaire because it is hard to find opponents in town. I will try out an aggressive attritional Union strategy and see how it works. But this will take some time.


Thanks for all the help.

toby,
glad you are diving deep into this game. i will only echo the sentiments of the others who have more experience than I, that this game has been battle worn and tested by now with 20 years of tourney play and 3 editions of rules changes to address teh few broken items that had been found.

i will say this though in my experience playing 15 completed games in the last 15 months plus reading many ACTS logs.

1. Losing Richmond is hardly a death blow for VA so sometimes i will make a play to take DC and losing Richmond capital doesn't hurt me nearly as much as it does the Union player (30 vs 15 SW). Also, it allows me to move the capital somewhere much less accessible which is a nice silver lining.

2. If the Union sends max 15 SPs at you to force you to either give up a force ratio (a no-no here) or place at least 6 SPs in defense, then I say let him come. Even if it's just J Johnston and something like Stuart's cav and Smith or PGT as 2nd subordinate AND ASSUMING no intercept for +2 additional DRM, the CSA will be fighting at +5 DRM to the Union's max +2 Pope plus one other subordinate.

That means at worst the CSA will be inflicting 4 SP and up to 6 SP while the Union will most likely hit 3 or 4*. that isn't a great trade I will grant you so getting a better subordinate in along with Stuart (preferably Longstreet in my opinion since Jackson has the initiative of 1) is very critical as JJ/Stuart and Longstreet combine for +7...
A. now the CSA has 5/6 probably of scoring 5 or 6 SPs damage which means the Union can't win the large battle even if they roll 6.
B. You will lose some generals but your consolation is that you are trading 3 SP on average for 5-6 SP (you can do that long term)
C. plus you will be getting that +3 SW boost for winning a large battle and more importantly, the Union will lose -5 SW. The Union force is now down to 10 SP most likely so now as long as you have 4 SP left in your force, you can fight a medium battle table and the Union will have no force ratio and at best can score 2* result against you. you can lose 2 SP in medium battles while inflicting 3's back on them a lot.

hope this helps. all else fails, just play someone with more experience and try your Union strat out. it's a strong one but definitely not a broken one.
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Sir Tobey
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capoetc wrote:
For what it's worth, in my experience a competent CSA player will take advantage of the Union player's single-minded focus on Richmond to invade either through West Virginia or Kentucky, or possibly a left hook through the valley into Maryland.



After reading the logfiles I found out that there is no raid SW penality for the union cotrolled border states anymore. I own the first GMT version and haven`t got so far into the rules of the second version. I can understand the change of the rules, because as Union player I never converted WV until the end... But why going for union controlled Kentucky or WV is worth the effort?

Generally I think I played the CSA too defensively. But raiding in KY or WV prooved often too difficult due the lacks of SP`s htat went to the east. The SW swing for large battles is a mechanic that should prevent an attritional warfare, but I feel destroying RS (especially Richmond, Nashville and Memphis) gives enough SW to stay above the critical margin of 50 in the year 1864. In detail I tend to play the attritional strategy from the first cardplay on, wearing down the AoNV or defenders in Richmond. If the AoNV is destroyed in such barrage, there are cardplays left to convert Virginia or take Richmond before reinforcements of a new turn can arrive. Otherwise it is like Jonathan said, the CSA can sustain these attacks very long. This also limiots the SW loss, since doing that 4 turns in a row and not take Richmond, will give the south a bunch of SW.

Sure, the fall of Richmond is not necessarily the end of the game, but after this, the conversion of Virginia is much more likely. And both, Richmond and Virginia is half the SW the Union needs to do in order to win.

Jon, thanks for the invitaton! I will send you a mail.

 
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Sir Tobey
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MarkHerman wrote:


You may recall that David Dockter and I won the last Charles S. Roberts award for our article on early war Union strategy. I need to dig that out and see if Rodger can get it online.

Mark


Unfortunatly not, the artice is not known to me, where can I ge taccess to it? If it was an awardwinning one, sure I missed something. Thanks in advance
 
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Wolf 359 wrote:

capoetc wrote:
For what it's worth, in my experience a competent CSA player will take advantage of the Union player's single-minded focus on Richmond to invade either through West Virginia or Kentucky, or possibly a left hook through the valley into Maryland.



After reading the logfiles I found out that there is no raid SW penality for the union cotrolled border states anymore. I own the first GMT version and haven`t got so far into the rules of the second version. I can understand the change of the rules, because as Union player I never converted WV until the end... But why going for union controlled Kentucky or WV is worth the effort?

Generally I think I played the CSA too defensively. But raiding in KY or WV prooved often too difficult due the lacks of SP`s htat went to the east. The SW swing for large battles is a mechanic that should prevent an attritional warfare, but I feel destroying RS (especially Richmond, Nashville and Memphis) gives enough SW to stay above the critical margin of 50 in the year 1864. In detail I tend to play the attritional strategy from the first cardplay on, wearing down the AoNV or defenders in Richmond. If the AoNV is destroyed in such barrage, there are cardplays left to convert Virginia or take Richmond before reinforcements of a new turn can arrive. Otherwise it is like Jonathan said, the CSA can sustain these attacks very long. This also limiots the SW loss, since doing that 4 turns in a row and not take Richmond, will give the south a bunch of SW.

Sure, the fall of Richmond is not necessarily the end of the game, but after this, the conversion of Virginia is much more likely. And both, Richmond and Virginia is half the SW the Union needs to do in order to win.

Jon, thanks for the invitaton! I will send you a mail.



Sir Tobey,

I have played this game 100+ times including games against the best tournament players.

There are viable Union attrition strategies but none of them have guaranteed results as you insinuated.

These are:

i) Second turn AOP surge to Richmond: Aiming mainly inflicting enough casualty to CSA to disable CSA from forming AONV on turn two + taking Richmond. CSA counter-strategies include: a) Forming AONV on turn 1. b) Forming AONV in a place farther from immediate reach of AOP. c) Full commitment to Richmond. etc.... It also necessitates a very strong Union second turn hand...

-- In case the Union strategy succeeds all it accomplishes is destroying already limited chances of the CSA in the long game + delaying 1862 invasion. It offers no definitive results.

ii) Post-Grant attrition strategy: Assuming Union survived CSA onslaught in 1862, Union may attempt to employ an attritional strategy with Grant's army. This is viable Union strategy. However, bear in mind that until 11th turn Union will have only two cavalry brigades. That means, Union will be vulnerable to CSA counter-attacks elsewhere and forcing attrition warfare often makes you lose that precious cavalry. CSA often does not have this constraint. Additionally, losing large battles will cost you not only in SP but also in SW. ...which may lead to non-election of Lincoln at the end of turn 12. Although, CSA wins 95% of its wins in 1862, Union attrition post-Grant (while viable) does not always produce conclusive results.

As to your early attrition strategy (with Pope, Burnside etc.); I am confident to say that this is not a viable Union strategy at all against any good CSA player. On the contrary, it is suicidal! Here is why:

First of all, Union does not have good offensive + movable generals pre-Grant period. If you attack with two 2-strategy rating generals, you will not be inflicting much casualty but instead you will be melting your (much needed) SP superiority. Additionally if you lose one of these 2 strategy rating generals, you are toast! Thereafter you will have difficulty to carry-out defensive Union manoeuvres.

Secondly, good CSA players do not play defence-oriented strategies (not initially at least). They will let you have Richmond, go past behind your lines, and cut your rail, levelling reinforcements. ...and en passant they may surround and destroy your attacking army as Union fails intercepts at 50% + rate prior Grant. (People don't attack with McClellan due to his zero offence rating.)

To illustrate how far off you are from the main target within For the People game algorithm, I will make a chess reference: Right now you are arguing that a2-a4 is an unbeatable opening for whites in Chess. Yes, that bad!!! :-) A good CSA player will beat you 99% of the times if you carry out early attrition strategy with Burnside + Pope. ...because you are doing exactly what CSA desires: Causing Chaos: You attack with a non-steerable ship against a very maneuverable ship... hoping for a collision. CSA won't let you (unless he is also a new-beginner.)

Do not be discouraged. FTP is a profound game.

...AND THERE ARE NO GUARANTEED STRATEGIES NOR UNBEATABLE PLAYERS IN THIS GAME.

Practice makes perfect! ...but try different opponnents.

Best Regards



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Sir Tobey
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Thank you very much for this profound analysis and that you took the time to share this. Especially the Post-Grant strategy is very interesting. It will help a lot. Again thanks.
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