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Subject: How to Survive the American Kill List rss

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Elias Någonsson
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Link to the Rolling Stone

On the semi-secret US kill list, drone killings, due process and executive branch secretly overriding the courts.

Found the article interesting and disturbing, but since the Rolling Stone isn't a publication I have any experience with and this partucular strain of authoritarianism not something I'm read up on properly, I'm not sure how to take the info.

The article paints a pretty bleak picture. Unfortunately I can't really summarize it well since it touches on a lot of different things (and SMMRY really didn't help), so I can only ask people read it.

Thoughts?
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david stairs
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Yea. That article was totally buggered up.. He survived 5 separate near misses. WOW..
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The "Disposition Matrix" is by far the worst thing that Obama did. It really taints his whole tenure. It disgusts me to think about.
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It does make me wonder when Trump might consider it OK to extend drone operations into domestic air space to help root out "terrorists".
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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TheChin! wrote:
The "Disposition Matrix" is by far the worst thing that Obama did. It really taints his whole tenure. It disgusts me to think about.

Why hasn't anyone told Trump that it was Obama's? He would dismantle the whole program.
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sajberhippien wrote:
Link to the Rolling Stone

On the semi-secret US kill list, drone killings, due process and executive branch secretly overriding the courts.

Found the article interesting and disturbing, but since the Rolling Stone isn't a publication I have any experience with and this partucular strain of authoritarianism not something I'm read up on properly, I'm not sure how to take the info.

The article paints a pretty bleak picture. Unfortunately I can't really summarize it well since it touches on a lot of different things (and SMMRY really didn't help), so I can only ask people read it.

Thoughts?


Rolling Stone
is generally left-of-center in politics. Matt Taibbi can be a little over the top sometimes (and is a bit of a sexist bro but that's another issue) but is also pretty good at unspooling outrageous stuff (he did some good reporting on the financial crisis years back). There's enough about the drone assassination program in this article that has been seen elsewhere to indicate there may be something to it.
 
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J.D. Hall
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Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.
 
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remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.
Who would disagree about terrorists? Of course they're human scum. And that applies to all terrorists, foreign and domestic.

My disagreement is who decides that somebody is a terrorist. If you're an American citizen, you deserve to have your fate decided by a court, not by a secret club in the back of the white house that not only won't say why they think you're a terrorist, but won't even say whether or not it's true. Meanwhile the United States military may or may not be trying to blow you up.
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J.D. Hall
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wmshub wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.
Who would disagree about terrorists? Of course they're human scum. And that applies to all terrorists, foreign and domestic.

My disagreement is who decides that somebody is a terrorist. If you're an American citizen, you deserve to have your fate decided by a court, not by a secret club in the back of the white house that not only won't say why they think you're a terrorist, but won't even say whether or not it's true. Meanwhile the United States military may or may not be trying to blow you up.

And if you're inside the territorial limits of the US, you will go to trial complete with all the full rights of any individual. If you're in the hills of Yemen or Pakistan, might be a bit different. As the right-wing nutters have said, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. I honestly do not recall any drone strikes in London's Fleet Street or on the beaches of St. Tropez, so it appears your address might have something to do with it.
 
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Elias Någonsson
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remorseless1 wrote:
wmshub wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.
Who would disagree about terrorists? Of course they're human scum. And that applies to all terrorists, foreign and domestic.

My disagreement is who decides that somebody is a terrorist. If you're an American citizen, you deserve to have your fate decided by a court, not by a secret club in the back of the white house that not only won't say why they think you're a terrorist, but won't even say whether or not it's true. Meanwhile the United States military may or may not be trying to blow you up.

And if you're inside the territorial limits of the US, you will go to trial complete with all the full rights of any individual. If you're in the hills of Yemen or Pakistan, might be a bit different. As the right-wing nutters have said, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. I honestly do not recall any drone strikes in London's Fleet Street or on the beaches of St. Tropez, so it appears your address might have something to do with it.


How do you feel about nerve agent poisoning?
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wmshub wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.
Who would disagree about terrorists? Of course they're human scum. And that applies to all terrorists, foreign and domestic.

My disagreement is who decides that somebody is a terrorist. If you're an American citizen, you deserve to have your fate decided by a court, not by a secret club in the back of the white house that not only won't say why they think you're a terrorist, but won't even say whether or not it's true. Meanwhile the United States military may or may not be trying to blow you up.

Especially when you consider, dozens, possibly even hundreds of US citizens, have WRONGLY been added to no-fly lists because someone screwed up, entering the names of actual terrorists.. AND OFTEN THOSE folk didn't find out they were on those lists, TILL they tried to fly somewhere.
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remorseless1 wrote:
wmshub wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.
Who would disagree about terrorists? Of course they're human scum. And that applies to all terrorists, foreign and domestic.

My disagreement is who decides that somebody is a terrorist. If you're an American citizen, you deserve to have your fate decided by a court, not by a secret club in the back of the white house that not only won't say why they think you're a terrorist, but won't even say whether or not it's true. Meanwhile the United States military may or may not be trying to blow you up.

And if you're inside the territorial limits of the US, you will go to trial complete with all the full rights of any individual. If you're in the hills of Yemen or Pakistan, might be a bit different.

I went to Italy a couple weeks ago. I wasn't aware that I waived my constitutional rights when I did so. Thank goodness that I wasn't labelled a terrorist when I was out. Or maybe I was...nobody really knows.
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Aaron Lambert
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These are the types of stories that make me really worry about dystopian futures and are why I am always wary of giving any more power or authority to the government.

As a person who has had my identity stolen, I know what it is like to have corporations really mess up your life. But as bad as that is, at least there is a way to fight back via a higher authority.

If the government screws you over there is often very little recourse. Yes the court system is available, but it can be a real uphill battle, particularly if you are dealing with "secret" information like the individual in this story is. And there are many situations where the outcome is "legal" and therefore you may not have any options for recourse at all.

There are too many people who have their lives disrupted or destroyed by government organizations like the IRS, the police department, homeland security, or whatever. Individual rights seem to be taken away very easily and are very, very difficult to regain. Property too. If your property is seized in a raid, whether you are directly involved in a crime or not, you may never get it back.

Who watches the watchmen?
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Robert Stuart
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remorseless1 wrote:
wmshub wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.
Who would disagree about terrorists? Of course they're human scum. And that applies to all terrorists, foreign and domestic.

My disagreement is who decides that somebody is a terrorist. If you're an American citizen, you deserve to have your fate decided by a court, not by a secret club in the back of the white house that not only won't say why they think you're a terrorist, but won't even say whether or not it's true. Meanwhile the United States military may or may not be trying to blow you up.

And if you're inside the territorial limits of the US, you will go to trial complete with all the full rights of any individual. If you're in the hills of Yemen or Pakistan, might be a bit different. As the right-wing nutters have said, the Constitution is not a suicide pact. I honestly do not recall any drone strikes in London's Fleet Street or on the beaches of St. Tropez, so it appears your address might have something to do with it.

There are lots of legitimate reasons Americans can choose to live out of the country. Maybe they're journalists. Maybe they're teachers or professors. Maybe they have a wish, or feel a calling, to do something to help out in other parts of the world, like tens of thousands of Peace Corps volunteers have done over the decades.
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david stairs
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bob_santafe wrote:

There are lots of legitimate reasons Americans can choose to live out of the country. Maybe they're journalists. Maybe they're teachers or professors. Maybe they have a wish, or feel a calling, to do something to help out in other parts of the world, like tens of thousands of Peace Corps volunteers have done over the decades.


OR maybe they just decided to retire overseas.. During my 20 yrs in, i knew over 70 guys who did just that. And watching the HGTV show, House hunters international, there's quite a lot of those on the show, doing the same..
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remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.

In Israel, our gov't controversially allows remote strikes to kill people posing a danger. That has to be established before a judge, along with proving the person cannot be taken into custody and that allowing them to remain free entails an imminent danger to people in Israel. Even so, the law allowing this is highly controversial among Israelis.

As I see it, the American drone program does not even have those restraints.
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whac3 wrote:
In Israel, our gov't controversially allows remote strikes to kill people posing a danger. That has to be established before a judge, along with proving the person cannot be taken into custody and that allowing them to remain free entails an imminent danger to people in Israel. Even so, the law allowing this is highly controversial among Israelis.

As I see it, the American drone program does not even have those restraints.
Probably because of the extra-remoteness of our operations versus local consequences for Israel. Our government can get away with little to no oversight or constraints because most Americans aren't really affected. Their two-dimensional view of the middle east allows easy rationalization of friend and foe. That simplistic and naive view allows our government greater latitude. Israel doesn't have that luxury, consequences are real and immediate and the odds of legitimate loyal Israeli's being in questionable places for legitimate reasons makes greater due diligence necessary. In essence we can be lazy and public opinion is mostly apathetic.
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remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list.

Who do you think poses a greater threat to America: the journalist in the article, or Hannity?
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remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.

Well the rest of the world is pretty sure you don't have jurisdiction.
Suppose the Russians decide who is a terrorist and starts killing people I your backyard.
And the process that decides who is a terrorist is in the hands of Trump.
This is a real slippery slope.
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wmshub wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Maybe not hanging around terrorists help keep you off the list. I'm an outlier on this -- I have no problem with the drone killer program, as long as they're not in the US or its territories. Modern terrorists are right up there with child molesters and serial rapists -- human scum.
Who would disagree about terrorists? Of course they're human scum. And that applies to all terrorists, foreign and domestic.

My disagreement is who decides that somebody is a terrorist. If you're an American citizen, you deserve to have your fate decided by a court, not by a secret club in the back of the white house that not only won't say why they think you're a terrorist, but won't even say whether or not it's true. Meanwhile the United States military may or may not be trying to blow you up.

Pretty sure a lot of the founders of your country were terrorists.
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J.D. Hall
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Well the rest of the world is pretty sure you don't have jurisdiction.

War is not subject to jurisdictional areas.

Quote:
Suppose the Russians decide who is a terrorist and starts killing people I your backyard.

Didn't they already do that in the UK twice?

Quote:
And the process that decides who is a terrorist is in the hands of Trump.

Yeah, sorry about that. Hope we change that in two years.

Quote:
This is a real slippery slope.

What are you, an NRA member?

The US has the world's largest and most effective nuclear arsenal. If someone shoots a rocket at us, we can wipe out the planet. Personally, I'd worry a hell of a lot more about that than drone killings.
 
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sajberhippien wrote:
How do you feel about nerve agent poisoning?

Never liked WMDs. Residual effects and all that. The Russians are doing it and look how sloppy it is. But nice try.
 
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remorseless1 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Well the rest of the world is pretty sure you don't have jurisdiction.

War is not subject to jurisdictional areas.


Of course war is subject to jurisdictional areas. A huge portion of international laws concerning warfare go to great pains to describe the different possible status of territories during a war, and define what's legal or illegal to do in, over, to, and to people in, and to people from, these territories.
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Matthew Bachtold
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Also, the United States is not currently at war.
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TheChin! wrote:
The "Disposition Matrix" is by far the worst thing that Obama did. It really taints his whole tenure. It disgusts me to think about.


I don't agree.

I think the mass collection of texts and emails of everyone was worse. shake
 
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