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Terraforming Mars» Forums » General

Subject: Incredibly thematic session rss

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Kevin Fitzgerald
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I just had a solo session where I terraformed Mars and likely doomed it to extinction all at once.

I played as the corporation that begins with 3 heat production and got a very good early draw that allowed me to focus on generating tons of heat and electricity. I was very quickly able to build an engine that let me store heat, use electricity to pay for steel and oxygen, use steel to pay for oceans and eventually siphon off whatever production I didn't need to turn into cash.

In the entire game I only built 3 forests and they all ended up being placed next to the nuclear tile, so not exactly the most beautiful forests you'll ever see. Thematically I would think this would be the equivalent of McDonald's funding an "get healthy" program.

My engine was so efficient that I fully Terraformed Mars on my first move of generation 12. However, I was still producing incredible amounts of heat, electricity, and steel, and profiting off of them. I could be wrong but I imagine that unless my corporation suddenly had a change of heart they would cause a global warming catastrophe that would make Mars uninhabitable in about a dozen or so generations.
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Mil Myman
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The game ends at 8 degrees Celsius. That's still really cold. But if heat ever stops being profitable and becomes harmful, the corporation can always turn off the heat-machines. Why keep running them when there's already enough heat? How can you possibly make any profit generating something everyone already has enough of?
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Robert McVie
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pfft, why turn then off for nothing, when someone will pay you to turn them off!
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Ivor Bolakov
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Quote:
Why keep running them when there's already enough heat? How can you possibly make any profit generating something everyone already has enough of?


Yes. Capitalism never produces excess. ;-)
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Kevin Fitzgerald
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Robble wrote:
pfft, why turn then off for nothing, when someone will pay you to turn them off!


My understanding is that the heat is a byproduct of the electricity and can't be flipped on and off. At the end of the game I was profiting off of the electricity and the waste heat, not to mention steel smelting which doesn't generate heat in game but certainly would in reality
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Bryan Thunkd
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OhBollox wrote:
Quote:
Why keep running them when there's already enough heat? How can you possibly make any profit generating something everyone already has enough of?


Yes. Capitalism never produces excess. ;-)
Once the market bottoms out, not many capitalists are going to continue producing goods that can't be sold. And ones that do will end up going out of business soon enough.
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RyuSora
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
The game ends at 8 degrees Celsius. That's still really cold. But if heat ever stops being profitable and becomes harmful, the corporation can always turn off the heat-machines. Why keep running them when there's already enough heat? How can you possibly make any profit generating something everyone already has enough of?


I believe you should inform yourself about corn in the USA... yeah, it is never too much corn for them
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Mil Myman
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Robble wrote:
pfft, why turn then off for nothing, when someone will pay you to turn them off!

Either way, they get turned off.

Jamman39 wrote:
My understanding is that the heat is a byproduct of the electricity and can't be flipped on and off. At the end of the game I was profiting off of the electricity and the waste heat, not to mention steel smelting which doesn't generate heat in game but certainly would in reality

Yes, power plants can be turned off, as can any machine. Pull the plug, stop feeding it fuel, disassemble it. Whichever.

ryusora wrote:
I believe you should inform yourself about corn in the USA... yeah, it is never too much corn for them

Because people keep buying it. Thus it would not be an example of what I was talking about. If you don't want to buy corn, you don't have to. But as long as someone is buying it, someone will be happy to keep growing it.
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Örjan Almén
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
ryusora wrote:
I believe you should inform yourself about corn in the USA... yeah, it is never too much corn for them

Because people keep buying it. Thus it would not be an example of what I was talking about. If you don't want to buy corn, you don't have to. But as long as someone is buying it, someone will be happy to keep growing it.


And as long as there are people making money out of corn, these people will promote others to make new inventions or ways to use it to grow (pun intended) the corn market
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Kevin Fitzgerald
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Robble wrote:
pfft, why turn then off for nothing, when someone will pay you to turn them off!

Either way, they get turned off.

Jamman39 wrote:
My understanding is that the heat is a byproduct of the electricity and can't be flipped on and off. At the end of the game I was profiting off of the electricity and the waste heat, not to mention steel smelting which doesn't generate heat in game but certainly would in reality

Yes, power plants can be turned off, as can any machine. Pull the plug, stop feeding it fuel, disassemble it. Whichever.

ryusora wrote:
I believe you should inform yourself about corn in the USA... yeah, it is never too much corn for them

Because people keep buying it. Thus it would not be an example of what I was talking about. If you don't want to buy corn, you don't have to. But as long as someone is buying it, someone will be happy to keep growing it.


Most of the heat generating effects that I've seen (I've only played the game twice) are not things that can be switched off. They tend to be atmospheric events that trap heat. If balanced correctly it would warm the planet nicely, if overproduced they would create a greenhouse effect just like the one that's currently destroying Earth.

Corn is not an example of capitalism working well. The surplus corn that Ryusora mentioned is being produced due to inefficient government subsidies. Effectively the US govt pays farmers to keep producing corn but ends up throwing away a huge % of what is produced.
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Mil Myman
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Jamman39 wrote:
Most of the heat generating effects that I've seen (I've only played the game twice) are not things that can be switched off. They tend to be atmospheric events that trap heat. If balanced correctly it would warm the planet nicely, if overproduced they would create a greenhouse effect just like the one that's currently destroying Earth.

So don't overproduce heat. What's the problem? It's not like Mars' orbit is being pushed closer to the Sun.

I don't recall when all the heat-producing cards are. Which ones represent things that can't be turned off? That will keep increasing the temperature indefinitely? And if you could keep increasing the temperature indefinitely, wouldn't that violate some laws of physics?
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Kevin Fitzgerald
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Jamman39 wrote:
Most of the heat generating effects that I've seen (I've only played the game twice) are not things that can be switched off. They tend to be atmospheric events that trap heat. If balanced correctly it would warm the planet nicely, if overproduced they would create a greenhouse effect just like the one that's currently destroying Earth.

So don't overproduce heat. What's the problem? It's not like Mars' orbit is being pushed closer to the Sun.

I don't recall when all the heat-producing cards are. Which ones represent things that can't be turned off? That will keep increasing the temperature indefinitely? And if you could keep increasing the temperature indefinitely, wouldn't that violate some laws of physics?


So most of the cards that increase heat production represent something that can't be switched off and could only be reversed with an effort that would be nearly equal to the effort that it would take to terraform Mars. Ex: Black Polar Dust, Imported greenhouse gasses, Methane from Titan.

You're absolutely right that you cant increase temperature indefinitely but you can increase it exponentially, using the same methods (cards) mentioned in the cards listed above you could create a neatly irreversible runaway greenhouse effect which would quickly push temperatures out of the relatively small habitable range that supports life.

It's worth noting that since my corporation was able to profit off of the production of heat and energy (which generates excess heat) and because all corporations are profit driven and therefore shortsighted there is no reason to think that they would suddenly change course. More likely they would look to take on other project such as terraforming Ceres so that they could continue to operate in the same way they always have.
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Mil Myman
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If you can import greenhouse gasses or methane, you can export them just as easily. You can stop stirring up black polar dust, or cover it up, or whatever.

Plus, increasing the temperature is an *action* under the control of each corporation. Eight heat cubes do not spontaneously escape from your resource board and heat up the planet against your will.
 
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Kevin Fitzgerald
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
If you can import greenhouse gasses or methane, you can export them just as easily. You can stop stirring up black polar dust, or cover it up, or whatever.

Plus, increasing the temperature is an *action* under the control of each corporation. Eight heat cubes do not spontaneously escape from your resource board and heat up the planet against your will.


Importing greenhouse gases would be accomplished by melting ammonia ice, or importing fluorine rich minerals, not by scooping gases off of one planet and dropping them off on another. Even if it were plausible to remove the gasses from the atmosphere, a corporation which has specialized in doing the opposite for more than a dozen generations wouldn't likely have the expertise or willingness to take on the project, especially when that corporation is actively profiting off of the status quo that it created.

Yes I agree that if you set theme aside, you could choose not to take the release heat action, but since this conversation is about the theme I'm curious what you think would happen if my corporation produced this much heat and attempted not to ventilate/radiate that heat indefinitely? Where would it go?
 
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Mil Myman
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Jamman39 wrote:
Yes I agree that if you set theme aside, you could choose not to take the release heat action, but since this conversation is about the theme I'm curious what you think would happen if my corporation produced this much heat and attempted not to ventilate/radiate that heat indefinitely? Where would it go?

Well, you've got space travel. So how about into space?
 
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Kevin Fitzgerald
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Jamman39 wrote:
Yes I agree that if you set theme aside, you could choose not to take the release heat action, but since this conversation is about the theme I'm curious what you think would happen if my corporation produced this much heat and attempted not to ventilate/radiate that heat indefinitely? Where would it go?

Well, you've got space travel. So how about into space?


So your whole thing is just saying really reductive things to try to mask a lack of understanding, while derailing conversations?

I think it's fairly clear you don't know much about science but since you seem to really want to feel like you've "won" the conversation: ya got me there, just put the heat cubes in space, I wish I could've thunk of that
 
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