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Subject: BGG's community needs to diversify rss

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Nestor Quintero
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Why?

As of this moment we have #1 game (this) and #2 game (pandemic legacy) in the top games of all times.

Take all the board player gamers - which will consists mostly of people who don't know about this page- and you will not convince too many of them to try these.

COOPERATIVE - CAMPAIGN

This is just not so popular and for many of us:

IT ISN'T FUN.

From Game design point of view a cooperative game is a 1p game, intentionally designed to be fiddly so to justify more people involved in it. As solo games, they are to my test, never more fun that a good console/PC game.. If I'm going to play alone.. why do I need all these components and so limited character development, for example?

It really worries me that this is the direction things are going.. Solo and Co-op games dominate. I even pay more for my favorite games because designers now drop in a "solo variant"... have you stopped to think that they could have added just another variant for the same cost instead?

They do it because it sells, and it sells a lot. And that terrifies me

Here we have gloomhaven, an inspired huge game, that could have been non cooperative, but they did it exclusively cooperative. Thus making it a complete unfun and unnecesary thing for most of us

The outcume of that? #1 in BGG, more stuff like this to come and more Co-op and solo content in our favorite games that are designed to be otherwise. We have to pay for that content even if we dont intend to use it.

We need many more voters in BGG that will bring a healthy diversity.
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J D
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People voting for a game you don’t like doesn’t mean BGG isn’t diverse. It just means lots of people love a game you don’t like.
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Erik Stuible
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Oh yes! Good idea, let's delete all coop and legacy games. That will creat more diversity!

Hmm maybe we just delete all games except Monopoly. Then all the diverse unity can vote for that as the number 1. (Anyway the scores for the number 1 is to high. Boardgaming isn't that fun. The boardgame number one should have a score of a 5! Volleyball is more fun.)
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James J
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This is the history of BGG numbers 1's:

Paths of Glory (August 19, 2001 - February 20,2002)
Tigris and Euphrates (February 20, 2002 - 2002)
Puerto Rico (2002 - August 2008)
Agricola (August 2008 - December 2010)
Twilight Struggle (January 2011 - December 2015)
Pandemic Legacy: Season 1 (January 2016 - Unknown)
Gloomhaven

You'll note that most are in fact non-cooperative.

I'm more worried about people who presume to know what the general population think when they are merely a single person in that population. The beauty of this site is that everyone's vote is equal. No need to throw negativity at games just because you don't like people enjoying things that you don't. That's what kept this industry so small for so long and kept this community "in a closet" so to speak.
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Joe Martineau
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SrFinn wrote:
Why?

As of this moment we have #1 game (this) and #2 game (pandemic legacy) in the top games of all times.

Take all the board player gamers - which will consists mostly of people who don't know about this page- and you will not convince too many of them to try these.

COOPERATIVE - CAMPAIGN

This is just not so popular and for many of us:

IT ISN'T FUN.

From Game design point of view a cooperative game is a 1p game, intentionally designed to be fiddly so to justify more people involved in it. As solo games, they are to my test, never more fun that a good console/PC game.. If I'm going to play alone.. why do I need all these components and so limited character development, for example?

It really worries me that this is the direction things are going.. Solo and Co-op games dominate. I even pay more for my favorite games because designers now drop in a "solo variant"... have you stopped to think that they could have added just another variant for the same cost instead?

They do it because it sells, and it sells a lot. And that terrifies me

Here we have gloomhaven, an inspired huge game, that could have been non cooperative, but they did it exclusively cooperative. Thus making it a complete unfun and unnecesary thing for most of us

The outcume of that? #1 in BGG, more stuff like this to come and more Co-op and solo content in our favorite games that are designed to be otherwise. We have to pay for that content even if we dont intend to use it.

We need many more voters in BGG that will bring a healthy diversity.


"Stop liking things I don't like!"
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Jim Fardette
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This isn't new, a lot of people had the same reaction to Magic: The Gathering. But sales don't lie and a lot of game stores were saved from extinction by that game. And look where we are today, with so many quality games of all types that there aren't enough hours in the day to play them all. The future seldom turns out the way we think it will, so why fret?
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BG.EXE
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What outcome did you honestly expect from this post?

“I know! I’ll go to the most popular game’s main forum and tell them it sucks and that ratings are broken. Surely everyone will rally behind my cause to get MY top games to the top of BGG!”

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Vic R
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Pure mathematics is the world's best game. It is more absorbing than chess, more of a gamble than poker, and lasts longer than Monopoly. It's free. It can be played anywhere - Archimedes did it in a bathtub
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Funny how you speak of diversity but then attack a type of game that you dont enjoy. It looks like you want to have a "healthy diversity" only on the kind of games that you enjoy and not in other or all kind of games. Thats not diversity.

Also you talk about "most of us", well maybe you are the minority just looking at the current ranking. However there is not shame or problem to be in minority. Wargames have been always a minority and wargamers enjoy themselves a lot, so stop being "terrified" about sales of games that you dont enjoy and just enjoy what you do. Your ceartianly dont going to be able to change the taste of anybody else, so just enjoy your taste in games and the rest of us will enjoy ours. Thats diversity
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Scott Wheelock
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You're right! Board-gamers are disproportionately white, straight men who---

One moment, please. I'm being told to read past the title of the post...

Ah. Never mind. blush
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Ed Berro
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"Here we have gloomhaven, an inspired huge game, that could have been non cooperative, but they did it exclusively cooperative. Thus making it a complete unfun and unnecesary thing for most of us."

I strongly disagree. You are not the spokesperson for "most of us" and I disagree with your assertion that "most of us" would prefer Gloomhaven to be a non-coop game.

I would not have purchased or played Gloomhaven if it were non-coop.

In addition, I disagree with your assertion that coop equates to solo with more fiddly elements. Working together to solve problems and to complete a scenario successfully is a core reason why I enjoy Gloomhaven, although it is not the only reason.

If you are not having fun, that's fine, but I recommend that you not speak for "most of us" because it makes you seem very irrational.
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Dean L
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SrFinn wrote:
Why?

As of this moment we have #1 game (this) and #2 game (pandemic legacy) in the top games of all times.

This is true. However if you look at games 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 they are all competitive non-campaign games. 11-20 sees two more co-ops. Another 2 in 21-30.

The rankings are vastly dominated by competitive games.

Quote:

Take all the board player gamers - which will consists mostly of people who don't know about this page- and you will not convince too many of them to try these.

COOPERATIVE - CAMPAIGN


Not true. Pandemic Legacy is massively more accessible than Through the Ages or Twilight struggle for casual players.

This is just not so popular and for many of us:

Quote:
If I'm going to play alone.. why do I need all these components and so limited character development, for example?

Then don't play alone. Part of the fun of co-op games is that they enable friends to have fun together working towards the same goal.

Quote:
They do it because it sells, and it sells a lot. And that terrifies me

Why? What are you actually afraid of? Most games are still competitive. More competitive games are coming out this year than did last year? What are you afraid of? Other people having fun?

Quote:
Here we have gloomhaven, an inspired huge game, that could have been non cooperative, but they did it exclusively cooperative. Thus making it a complete unfun and unnecesary thing for most of us


The problem here, is that you're defining competitive games as the default, so taking objection to any different sort of games. Competitive games are by the far the biggest market sector in board gaming. By far. I could understand if you really liked co-ops and were moaning than 80% of the rankings were competitive. But you're not. Your stuff is still dominant? What are you actually scared of?
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Tom Heath
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For many of you it isn't fun, but for far more it is...

When I started back up with board games, Twilight Struggle was #1 and I've never had any interest in playing it at all. At the same time though, it never annoyed me that people liked it... whistle
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mike heim
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Vasilis
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I stopped reading when 'the rest of us don't do X', 'many of us', 'X just isn't popular' dropped. Who told this guy that he is definitely in a majority?
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Jason Vogelpohl
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This is what is wrong with humanity. Obviously not a direct quote, but: "People aren't like me, I'm scared." And then combined with the cognitive dissonance of, "We need more diversity." More accurate to his feelings based on what he said is: "We need more people like me." But to his mind diversity probably sounds better.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. I probably am. But scale this kind of thinking up to things much more important than a board gaming hobby....

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Jim Fardette
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tuvineo wrote:
This is what is wrong with humanity. Obviously not a direct quote, but: "People aren't like me, I'm scared." And then combined with the cognitive dissonance of, "We need more diversity." More accurate to his feelings based on what he said is: "We need more people like me." But to his mind diversity probably sounds better.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. I probably am. But scale this kind of thinking up to things much more important than a board gaming hobby....



Oh, there's a lot more wrong with humanity than this. Use your imagination!
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Kip Kwiatkowski
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SrFinn wrote:
blah blah blah


OP, you have a 4 year old account and have less than 2 dozen posts/comments. Lets leave the critique of BGG to people who are active in the BGG community and far more qualified.
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Karn
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I was told there would be popcorn in here!
What good is all this salt without the popcorn?
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J Mathews
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I'm another one who wouldn't have purchased GH if it was another "one-vs-many" dungeon crawl and find it incredibly fun as a co-op.
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Wesley Courtnay
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That guy...
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Quote:
"Stop liking things I don't like!"


"Old man yells at cloud"
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Luciano
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Could not be happier with more and better solo board games. All these “gamers” that are not in bgg would probably have TTR, monopoly and risk as what board games are.
Would you also complain that an Ingmar Bergman film is not ok to be among the best films in history becouse the common movie fan think fast and furious is better? Good lord.
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Kevin Blackburn
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“This just isn’t popular, but they keep making them because they sell so well.”

Um.
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Nestor Quintero
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Wow.

In all the answers to my post - besides 2 good arguments - I realize there's a fanboy like reaction and a general assumption that I am:

1) Attacking gloomhaven
2) Annoyed/unhappy/offended that the majority of BGG is not aligned with me in this

Realize for a moment that I love this hobby, I pick a subject I care about.. but I have a life going on and this hobby can only bring me joy. Try to imagine I am actually not frustrated.. perhaps.. ask yourself why you think I am

Bottom line I stand to my point: If you come to this site; go to a con; go to a gameshop.. everybody loves and knows what Gloomhaven is. But that's not the average player. Also, I respect that you like solo/co-op games so there's no discussing that. So dont discuss why I find them absurd and unfun.

The whole message here is: no one gets into wine loving starting with the crème de la crème. May will actually be very settled and satisfied with "average" wine. I'd like that when such starters get into the hobby they dont inmediately go and crash into gloomhaven - Do you want to make this hobby elitarian?
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Nestor Quintero
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Hoodlumman wrote:
People voting for a game you don’t like doesn’t mean BGG isn’t diverse. It just means lots of people love a game you don’t like.


You say "people" as if it was global, universal and well distributed. This people voting you mention , are not. And that's my point.
And your hostility doesnt help
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Kip Kwiatkowski
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SrFinn wrote:
Hoodlumman wrote:
People voting for a game you don’t like doesn’t mean BGG isn’t diverse. It just means lots of people love a game you don’t like.


You say "people" as if it was global, universal and well distributed. This people voting you mention , are not. And that's my point.
And your hostility doesnt help


BGG is a public community. Anyone is allowed to come in and vote on games. There is some behind the scenes weighting in order to weed out false votes etc.

So what the voting means is that a large portion of the gaming community on BGG has voted Gloomhaven to be the best. Being that it is up against ALL other games, and (if you knew anything about the history of the rankings) held out and won againt games that have been on that list for nearly half a decade.

As I mentioned before, by your post and activity history you have no idea how diverse BGG and the votes are. So you posting here with no knowledge just tells everyone you are just a troll, thus the hostility.
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