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Subject: Another question about "your turn" rss

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John Cross
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Hello all. There have been questions about what constitutes "your turn". It has been determined that "your turn" is any point at which you use/spend an action, whether it is with your colored Defender card or an All Defenders card. At least that is how I have read and interpreted the rules and threads here.
My question has to do with defender powers/region powers/items/skills that say "Use only once per turn" and the All Defenders cards.
Let's take the Spear item as an example. It can be used once per turn. I draw an All Defenders card. The green meeple can use an action to take a turn to fight the Epic Foe and deal 3 points of damage. Good so far. Next, the yellow meeple uses an action to move to another region. Still good. Now we go back to the green meeple who wants to use the Spear item again to fight the Epic Foe. Is green considered to be taking two independent turns and can therefore use the spear? Or is using a second action from the same All Defenders card, even if the sequence of actions used has been interrupted by another player, still considered one turn?
In other words:
Green -> Green -> Yellow = Green takes one turn (and can use the Spear once) and yellow takes one turn.
Green -> Yellow -> Green = Green takes two turns (and can use the Spear twice) and yellow takes one turn. Or is green still considered to be taking one turn and can only use the Spear once?
Thanks!
 
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Michael Tyree
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Nothing other than my gut telling me this, but I would say Green is only taking 1 turn. He gets a turn because he's using at least 1 action, but his turn could be up to 3 (4 if destroyed regions, special effects etc). In other words, the only determining factor I see is whether or not Green uses any actions -
Yes = (1 or more) Green takes a turn
No = (0) Green doesn't take a turn
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Stefan Yates
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Each time your colored Defender card or an All Defenders card is drawn you get a turn in which you can use 3 or 4 actions. If you have an item that can only be used once per turn, then if you use it, you cannot use it again until another All Defenders or Defender card of your color is drawn.
 
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Stephan Beal
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styates wrote:
Each time your colored Defender card or an All Defenders card is drawn you get a turn in which you can use 3 or 4 actions. If you have an item that can only be used once per turn, then if you use it, you cannot use it again until another All Defenders or Defender card of your color is drawn.


A) That's a sane interpretation (assuming you add a clause saying that a hero who is assigned no Actions (whether from a card or ability) is not getting a Turn - that's important for recovery in the city).

B) But still: Citation Needed or else it's just an unsubstantiated rumor.
 
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Mikkel Øberg
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It would be insane if you could divide the turns and have multiple by switching, just because you play fewer than four players. Many items would be imbalanced, so I am entirely convinced that this is overthinking it. Something I often do myself.
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Matthew
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Or what about playing with the Elf Commander? When his defender card is drawn, other players get an action. Is that considered a turn?
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John Cross
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Hafheim wrote:
Or what about playing with the Elf Commander? When his defender card is drawn, other players get an action. Is that considered a turn?

That is a great question and I am assuming that yes, that would be considered a turn for the chosen beneficiary.
Thank you all for chiming in here.
mtyree1972 wrote:
Nothing other than my gut telling me this, but I would say Green is only taking 1 turn. He gets a turn because he's using at least 1 action, but his turn could be up to 3 (4 if destroyed regions, special effects etc). In other words, the only determining factor I see is whether or not Green uses any actions -
Yes = (1 or more) Green takes a turn
No = (0) Green doesn't take a turn

This makes the most sense to me and is how I have been playing and will continue to play unless officially told otherwise. And even then, I might continue to play this way! cool
You all are great. May your Defenders have eternal success turning back the evil hordes.
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Andy
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For abilities that can only be used once per turn (some Hero abilities and a Region Action abilities), what constitutes a turn?
Once per turn means you can only use it once per Ally or Group Ally Card, or when the "Elixir of Errand" is used off-turn.
 
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Stephan Beal
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DarkDeveloper wrote:
For abilities that can only be used once per turn (some Hero abilities and a Region Action abilities), what constitutes a turn?
Once per turn means you can only use it once per Ally or Group Ally Card, or when the "Elixir of Errand" is used off-turn.


You're stating that as fact. Do you have a rules citation?

To be clear, i agree with that interpretation 95%[^1], but stating it "as fact" without "proof" is tantamount to spreading rumors.


[1] = i would suggest that "per Ally or Group Ally Card" be changed to "per card drawn from the Turn Deck".
 
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Andy
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It's from the FAQ from the 1st edition which is why the cards are listed as ally and group ally instead of defender and group defender. It should still apply since the rules didn't change much.
 
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Stephan Beal
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DarkDeveloper wrote:
It's from the FAQ from the 1st edition


Presumably you mean thread 1318570 (the Unofficial FAQ)?

To save the next fellow some searching, that thread says:

JQTNguyen wrote:
For abilities that can only be used once per turn (some Hero abilities and a Region Action abilities), what constitutes a turn?
Once per turn means you can only use it once per Ally or Group Ally Card, or when the "Elixir of Errand" is used off-turn.


The top of the thread claims that "Answers are based on responses from the designer, publisher, and rulebook", so it would seem to be about as official as it gets, despite it being for 1E.
 
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Andy
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That's the one. I'll still use the general FAQ clarifications for things that didn't change between 1st and 2nd. Some of the rule changes between 1st and 2nd make some of the FAQ entries invalid. If you are looking for that sweet geek gold you could start another FAQ using the same format specifically for 2nd edition and I'm sure Michael or Scott would weigh in on whether the answers from the 1st edition carried over to the 2nd.
 
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Stefan Yates
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sgbeal wrote:
styates wrote:
Each time your colored Defender card or an All Defenders card is drawn you get a turn in which you can use 3 or 4 actions. If you have an item that can only be used once per turn, then if you use it, you cannot use it again until another All Defenders or Defender card of your color is drawn.


A) That's a sane interpretation (assuming you add a clause saying that a hero who is assigned no Actions (whether from a card or ability) is not getting a Turn - that's important for recovery in the city).

B) But still: Citation Needed or else it's just an unsubstantiated rumor.


Not unsubstantiated at all. From Page 9 of the Rulebook it's pretty clear that a Turn card grants a Turn in which you use actions:

Quote:
A. Defender Cards
When a Defender Card is drawn, it grants
a Turn to the Defender whose color matches
the card. That Defender gains 3 Action
Points (3 ), or 4 if there is at least one
Destroyed Region, which can be spent to
perform actions and abilities.
When an All Defenders Card is drawn,
3 (or 4 if there is a Destroyed Region) {actions} are
divided collectively among the Defenders
to take actions, however they choose.
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Andy
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styates wrote:


The RAW is ambiguous. If I were to read the line without having played the 1st edition and using the FAQ I could read it as each action gained from a group card counts as a turn if divided among three players so splitting the actions among two player would be splitting 3 turns if the players stagger the actions like the GYG example in the OP which would allow me to use a once per turn ability twice for one defender card.

Edit: Also a group defender card does not automatically grant a turn. An action would need to be used for it to count as a turn. For example, you are exhausted at the capital city when a group defender card comes up. You do not get full hit points unless you use an action from the group card. This is also a FAQ entry from the 1st edition which refers to rules that did not change between 1st and 2nd edition.
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Jarad Bond
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DarkDeveloper wrote:

Edit: Also a group defender card does not automatically grant a turn.
[...]
This is also a FAQ entry from the 1st edition which refers to rules that did not change between 1st and 2nd edition.

Where are you getting that info, that this is one of the rules that did not change? I'm just asking because many things did change...

I've been playing the 2nd edition like the 1st edition and asking questions about overpowered plays that involve "taking a turn", and I'm wondering if the definition was tightened up.

I searched for "Turn" in the only digital rulebook I could find (it's in the 1st edition BGG Files section, under the title of "revised edition rulebook"), and found two clear references. The first was page 9, as quoted by styates. That section of the rulebook states that you are granted a turn on your matching color Defender Card (nowhere else are you granted a turn in the rulebook). However, defenders may spend the action points of an All Defenders Card to "take Turns". This implies that you are also granted a Turn under unspecified conditions. Specifically, are you granted a Turn only by spending one of those three actions, or do you also get a Turn if you used the Zephyr Cloak for an sacrifice (see below)?

The second reference is here:

Rulebook, pg.12, Defenders Becoming Exhausted wrote:

[...]
If a Defender is in the Capital City at the start of their Turn (during a Defender or an All Defender Card) they are restored to full Hit Points.

If the author is using English correctly, then the parenthesis are unmistakenly clarifying what a "Turn" means in that sentence.

I'd be hesitant now to use the 1st edition FAQ for anything in the 2nd edition; maybe you're not getting a real Turn if you're sacrificing off-turn anymore? You could try to argue that you get a Turn if the Zephyr Cloak (you may sacrifice on any Defender's Card, including All Defenders Card) is used "during" an All Defenders Card. Even if it does, there is no way the online RAW "grants" a player a Turn when they sacrifice on another color Defender's card, though. The only granting of Turns in RAW is for a Defender's Card that matches the player color (or All Defenders Card - but under unclear conditions).

The rules might be different from the designer's intent though, or this version of the rules. If I notice a difference in the printed version, I'll come back to correct it.

TLDR; The one thing I can verify is that it says nowhere in the new rulebook that a player gets a Turn simply by gaining or spending an action.

 
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Austin Way
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Just my two cents and how I have been playing it, certainly not confirmed...

If in a 2 player game you get your two colored turn cards and two "all defender turn cards" (ADTC), a 3 player game you get three colored turn cards and one ADTC, and in a 4 player game you don't get any ADTC then I interpret that as you get the equivalent of FOUR turns per round.

Thus in a two player game, even though it is possible for each player to have THREE turns (your color and 2 ADTC), I believe the max number of "Your Turn" abilities should equal 4.

IE: Four player game = Four turns/round and I think a two player game should get Four turns/round as well.

 
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Stephan Beal
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alway34 wrote:
Thus in a two player game, even though it is possible for each player to have THREE turns (your color and 2 ADTC), I believe the max number of "Your Turn" abilities should equal 4.


You're disregarding that both characters can take Turns when the All Defenders is drawn (the rulebook explicitly says all participating characters may take Turns). So 6 (total) "Your Turn" abilities, not 4: 1 each for their own color card and (potentially, depending on how you split it) 2 each for All Defenders. i.e. each character, each round, gets to act on up to (depending on how you split the All Defenders) 3 Turns each.

(That's disregarding whether or not out-of-turn Action-gaining counts as a Turn, which is still up for debate.)
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Stefan Schiltz
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can the creators/designer make an FAQ please!

so when it says once per turn the action isnt limited to just your color defender card and you can do the action on an any defender card as long as you give yourself one action?


but when it says your turn OR at the start of your turn how does that work?
Sorry if these are dumb or unclear questions...

Staff of control states, "At the start of your turn you may move the epic foe to any outer region." so can I use this on an all defender card right before I give my character an action, or do I have to give myself an action first, but if I do that it is no longer at the start of my turn.

As long as he gives himself one action Randal can use his abilities on an all defender card right? or can he just use his ability right away? his card states " on your turn you may use abilities of adjacent outer regions and defenders in the same region as you, but you must still pay their action cost if applicable. so if I have three actions to go around can one character get two actions and can randal right away use his ability to spend one action to use the entomb on the ruins that is adjacent to him or does he first have to do a normal action to constitute that it is his turn.

Similar question for a character that has zero health and the ale of bravery artifact. when an all defender card is pulled can I give one character 2 actions, and than 1 action to the character with ale of bravery to secure once, or do they first have to do one different action that is not secure or fight to constitute it is now there turn.

Same question with Adelphos if you start your turn in the plains you gain 1 additional action, do I get this extra action if it is an all defender card ?
 
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Matt Smith
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My interpretation of the RAW and likely intent of the designer:

If you take one or more actions during the resolution of any Defenders card, you are deemed to have taken a "Turn".

Each defender can take only one "Turn" per round deck card, regardless of how many actions they take or abilities they use (as long as they spend at least one AP).

If you have an ability that triggers at the start of your turn, you may take an action before or after the ability triggers. So Adelphos gets a free action in the Plains if he starts there and actually takes an action (which can be the free action).

I think what's tripping people up is the chicken/egg conundrum of which came first, the "Turn" or the "Action"? It seems easiest to resolve this conundrum by using the following process steps in order:

1. The player declares he's taking a "Turn".
2. Abilities/effects that occur at the start of his Turn now trigger (or can be triggered, if it's player's choice).
3. The player must now spend at least one action point to make his Turn valid.

For example, if Randal is adjacent to the Desert and has the Staff of Control when an All Defenders card is drawn, he can:
- Declare he's taking a "Turn", then
- Use the Staff to move the Epic Foe, then
- Use the adjacent desert's free region ability, then
- Use an Action Point to Secure his current region.
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James Patterson
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mvettemagred wrote:
It seems easiest to resolve this conundrum by using the following process steps in order:

1. The player declares he's taking a "Turn".
2. Abilities/effects that occur at the start of his Turn now trigger (or can be triggered, if it's player's choice).
3. The player must now spend at least one action point to make his Turn valid.



I think this summary works well. I don't have the rules in front of me, but I seem to recall a parenthetical statement that a character must spend at least 1 action point to be considered as taking a turn. (I think it was in connection with healing in the Capital City.) I would add that if the same player uses an action point after another player uses one, they can't use "start of turn" effects again; only one "start of turn" effect per card draw.

I would also add one item to the list:

4. After all action points have been spent, any "end of turn" effects trigger.

There is one item (Hammer of Might?) that grants a free secure in the region where you end your turn, so that should not be used multiple times from a single card draw either.

For a single cycle through the turn deck in a 2p game, each player could conceivably have 3 turns, depending on how they need to spread around the action points. This may seem OP, but since you can only cover 2 Outer Regions for defense (barring certain special cases), there can actually be a lot of ground to cover when those All Defender cards come up, especially when you need to heal up. Only one play so far with 2e, but so far it doesn't seem unbalanced to play this way.
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Matt Smith
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Pattersonclan wrote:
mvettemagred wrote:
It seems easiest to resolve this conundrum by using the following process steps in order:

1. The player declares he's taking a "Turn".
2. Abilities/effects that occur at the start of his Turn now trigger (or can be triggered, if it's player's choice).
3. The player must now spend at least one action point to make his Turn valid.



I think this summary works well. I don't have the rules in front of me, but I seem to recall a parenthetical statement that a character must spend at least 1 action point to be considered as taking a turn. (I think it was in connection with healing in the Capital City.) I would add that if the same player uses an action point after another player uses one, they can't use "start of turn" effects again; only one "start of turn" effect per card draw.

I would also add one item to the list:

4. After all action points have been spent, any "end of turn" effects trigger.

There is one item (Hammer of Might?) that grants a free secure in the region where you end your turn, so that should not be used multiple times from a single card draw either.

For a single cycle through the turn deck in a 2p game, each player could conceivably have 3 turns, depending on how they need to spread around the action points. This may seem OP, but since you can only cover 2 Outer Regions for defense (barring certain special cases), there can actually be a lot of ground to cover when those All Defender cards come up, especially when you need to heal up. Only one play so far with 2e, but so far it doesn't seem unbalanced to play this way.

Agree 100%. For "All Defenders" cards, a player's "start of turn" effects happen when he declares he's taking a turn, and coincides with when he takes his first action. If he takes additional actions later after another player has taken an action, he's just continuing the same turn he started earlier.
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Jared Smith
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WayCoolSuperDude wrote:
Hello all. There have been questions about what constitutes "your turn". It has been determined that "your turn" is any point at which you use/spend an action, whether it is with your colored Defender card or an All Defenders card. At least that is how I have read and interpreted the rules and threads here.
My question has to do with defender powers/region powers/items/skills that say "Use only once per turn" and the All Defenders cards.
Let's take the Spear item as an example. It can be used once per turn. I draw an All Defenders card. The green meeple can use an action to take a turn to fight the Epic Foe and deal 3 points of damage. Good so far. Next, the yellow meeple uses an action to move to another region. Still good. Now we go back to the green meeple who wants to use the Spear item again to fight the Epic Foe. Is green considered to be taking two independent turns and can therefore use the spear? Or is using a second action from the same All Defenders card, even if the sequence of actions used has been interrupted by another player, still considered one turn?
In other words:
Green -> Green -> Yellow = Green takes one turn (and can use the Spear once) and yellow takes one turn.
Green -> Yellow -> Green = Green takes two turns (and can use the Spear twice) and yellow takes one turn. Or is green still considered to be taking one turn and can only use the Spear once?
Thanks!


In 1st Edition, actions granted by Group Ally cards (i.e. All Defender cards) had to be consecutive.

It seems pretty intuitive that you don't get a new turn every time you spend an action after somebody else. Even if you mixed character actions, there would still only be one turn for each. Besides, each Defender card only grants 1 turn per set of actions. The All Defenders card would be no different, even if another player performed an action in between yours.

I would also say that by definition, a turn would involve consecutive actions. Once you "hand it over" to another player, it's technically their turn. Therefore, I'd be playing it like the 1st Edition way.

 
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Stephan Beal
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Mordegast wrote:
In 1st Edition, actions granted by Group Ally cards (i.e. All Defender cards) had to be consecutive.


For completion, here's the citation for that:

TED 1E pg 7 wrote:
When a Group Ally Card is drawn, 3 Action Points are
divided among the players however they choose. If there
are any Destroyed Regions when the card is drawn, an
additional Action Point is granted. Each player that takes
at least ONE of the Action Points will get a turn; the turn
order is decided by the group. A player must take all of
their Actions consecutively (i.e., if one player is going to
take 2 of the 3 Actions, that player must use them both
consecutively).


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Stefan Schiltz
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mvettemagred wrote:


For example, if Randal is adjacent to the Desert and has the Staff of Control when an All Defenders card is drawn, he can:
- Declare he's taking a "Turn", then
- Use the Staff to move the Epic Foe, then
- Use the adjacent desert's free region ability, then
- Use an Action Point to Secure his current region.


To be clear? Would the above be legal if Randal never used an action point to secure his current region?

He declared he is taking a turn and used two abilities but he did not actually use an action point?
 
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Stephan Beal
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sdschiltz wrote:
To be clear? Would the above be legal if Randal never used an action point to secure his current region?

He declared he is taking a turn and used two abilities but he did not actually use an action point?


FWIW, i don't believe so, because allowing that would allow, e.g., Defenders in the City to recover all of their health without "really" taking a Turn, or to get extra ("too many") uses out of once-per-turn abilities/artifacts. It may also have other undesired side effects which more creative players will think of.

But i guess that's what this whole thread is about: what "really" counts as "taking a Turn".

For the time being, the answer is still "we really don't know!" :|
 
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