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Subject: Does a Stunned Enemy Perform an Attack On Death? rss

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Colin Lim
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I just killed a Cultist who had their "On Death, perform an ATTACK (note, NOT just deal damage, perform an actual attack) equal to base attack plus 2 to all surrounding characters". However, the Cultist was stunned when I killed them. Do they still perform their attack?

My thinking is no, they don't, because the definition of stun is that the figure cannot move or attack. If it just said deal damage, I would think it would still happen. But I would like to be sure, as if they do perform their attack, the modifier is double damage and is going to drastically change the outcome of my scenario...
 
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Clayton Threadgill
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Not sure where you got that definition.

From Page 23:
"STUN – If a figure is stunned, it cannot perform any abilities or use items on its turn except to perform a long rest."

So being stun does not prevent a figure from performing an attack outside of their turn. If the cultist is stunned and then killed, the attack still happens.

However, the ON DEATH attack is an ability that has to be activated on the cultists turn. So, if the cultist is stunned when it is his turn, that cultist will not attack ON DEATH for that round because the ability was never activated.
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Colin Lim
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Hmm, touche. Okay thanks.
 
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Jay Johnson
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hooliganj wrote:
So being stun does not prevent a figure from performing an attack outside of their turn.


not according to the FAQ:
Quote:
Can a figure still perform actions prevented by immobilize and stun even if those actions are granted to the figure outside their turn?
(Errata) No. The “on their turn” phrase listed in the condition section of the rule book should not be there.
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Gabriel Rockman
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JayJ79 wrote:
hooliganj wrote:
So being stun does not prevent a figure from performing an attack outside of their turn.


not according to the FAQ:
Quote:
Can a figure still perform actions prevented by immobilize and stun even if those actions are granted to the figure outside their turn?
(Errata) No. The “on their turn” phrase listed in the condition section of the rule book should not be there.


If the "on their turn" phrase shouldn't be there, that would change the rule book to saying that a stunned player can't use items. That would mean that items which could normally be used outside of a player's turn could not be used while a player was stunned. For example, removing the phrase "on their turn" would prohibit a player from using the Heater Shield when attacked, if the player was stunned.

So what's the rule on item use when stunned, for items that can be used outside of a player's turn? Permissible, nor not permissible?

Edit: FAQ says that stun does not affect passive items. But it does not say anything about non-passive items like the Heater Shield.
 
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Miłosz Mazewski
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That depends. If minion was stunned before its turn, no ability will trigger, including damage on death. But if the stun was applied after its turn, the ability “on death dmg” is active and will trigger. This is explained in faq and on this forum as well.
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A D
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gabrielrockman1 wrote:
JayJ79 wrote:
hooliganj wrote:
So being stun does not prevent a figure from performing an attack outside of their turn.


not according to the FAQ:
Quote:
Can a figure still perform actions prevented by immobilize and stun even if those actions are granted to the figure outside their turn?
(Errata) No. The “on their turn” phrase listed in the condition section of the rule book should not be there.


If the "on their turn" phrase shouldn't be there, that would change the rule book to saying that a stunned player can't use items. That would mean that items which could normally be used outside of a player's turn could not be used while a player was stunned. For example, removing the phrase "on their turn" would prohibit a player from using the Heater Shield when attacked, if the player was stunned.

So what's the rule on item use when stunned, for items that can be used outside of a player's turn? Permissible, nor not permissible?

Edit: FAQ says that stun does not affect passive items. But it does not say anything about non-passive items like the Heater Shield.


The Heater Shield (and similar items) is not affected by Stun for one simple reason: the effect of the Heater shield is not an “ability”, and Stun does nothing more than prevent a figure from using any abilities.

Similarly, if a monster that has an innate retaliate (meaning, retaliate X is listed on the monster’s stat card), it can still perform the retaliate even when Stunned, because it is not an ability.
 
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Martin Ender
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demax51 wrote:
Stun does nothing more than prevent a figure from using any abilities.

That's not true. Stun prevents the use of abilities and items.
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Martin Ender
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Mazor wrote:
That depends. If minion was stunned before its turn, no ability will trigger, including damage on death. But if the stun was applied after its turn, the ability “on death dmg” is active and will trigger. This is explained in faq and on this forum as well.

That usually refers to stuff like Retaliate which isn't affected by stun. Stun prevents the use of abilities and the On Death effect is an attack ability. So I'm pretty sure that the attack won't happen if the cultist is stunned during its turn or during its death.
 
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Gabriel Rockman
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m_ender wrote:
demax51 wrote:
Stun does nothing more than prevent a figure from using any abilities.

That's not true. Stun prevents the use of abilities and items.


I agree with Martin. The rulebook clearly says that Stun prevents the use of items, and the FAQ clearly says that the "on their turn" phrase in the rulebook shouldn't be there.

The FAQ even has the specific question about whether or not stun affects passive items, and indicates that stun does not affect them. But given that it does not indicate whether or not stun affects non-passive items, I think that stun does prevent the use of non-passive items, even outside of one's turn.



Stun says that you cannot perform any abilities. The ability in retaliate is putting up the retaliate buff. Actually retaliating and doing damage is not the ability. So for this thread, the question is whether the attack all adjacent enemies ability is being used when the enemy dies, or if the use of the ability is when the buff is activated and the attacks don't actually constitute an ability. I would say that the Cultist's ability gives them an ability when they die, so stun prevents them from attacking when they die. I would call it an on death ability, not an on death buff. Whereas retaliate is a buff, not an ability.
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Dan Baker
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Yick wrote:
I just killed a Cultist who had their "On Death, perform an ATTACK (note, NOT just deal damage, perform an actual attack) equal to base attack plus 2 to all surrounding characters". However, the Cultist was stunned when I killed them. Do they still perform their attack?

My thinking is no, they don't, because the definition of stun is that the figure cannot move or attack. If it just said deal damage, I would think it would still happen. But I would like to be sure, as if they do perform their attack, the modifier is double damage and is going to drastically change the outcome of my scenario...


You’re safe (even though Stun isn’t “can’t move or attack”, it’s “can’t use any abilities or items”).

Here’s how Stun and Disarm interact with that card:
- Killed before their initiative: They haven’t had time to set up the on-death trigger yet, so nothing happens.
- Stunned before their initiative: They do not perform any of the abilities on their card, including setting up the on-death trigger. Even if they’re no longer stunned when they die, nothing happens.
- Stunned after their initiative but before the attack that kills them: They set up the on-death trigger, but they are unable to perform the action when they die. (Note that an attack with Stun that kills them isn’t good enough - added effects of an attack happen after damage.)
- Disarmed before their initiative: They don’t perform their normal attack, but they can set up the on-death trigger, and if they are no longer disarmed or stunned when they die, they explode.
- Disarmed after their initiative: They can’t attack when the on-death trigger goes off, so nothing happens. (As with Stun, if the Disarm is coming from the same attack that kills them, it’s too late.)
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Daniel Frey
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dbaker wrote:
Here’s how Stun and Disarm interact with that card:
- Killed before their initiative: They haven’t had time to set up the on-death trigger yet, so nothing happens.
- Stunned before their initiative: They do not perform any of the abilities on their card, including setting up the on-death trigger. Even if they’re no longer stunned when they die, nothing happens.
- Stunned after their initiative but before the attack that kills them: They set up the on-death trigger, but they are unable to perform the action when they die. (Note that an attack with Stun that kills them isn’t good enough - added effects of an attack happen after damage.)
- Disarmed before their initiative: They don’t perform their normal attack, but they can set up the on-death trigger, and if they are no longer disarmed or stunned when they die, they explode.
- Disarmed after their initiative: They can’t attack when the on-death trigger goes off, so nothing happens. (As with Stun, if the Disarm is coming from the same attack that kills them, it’s too late.)


This sounds like the correct solution to me . Given that I quickly found two older threads on this issue from this year alone when searching BGG (here and here) I think I would like to see this answer perpetuated as a FAQ entry for the cultists
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Tolis Alex
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Just a question. What's the definition of the passive items?
Maybe it should be included in the FAQ?
 
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Jay Johnson
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JayJ79 wrote:
hooliganj wrote:
So being stun does not prevent a figure from performing an attack outside of their turn.


not according to the FAQ:
Quote:
Can a figure still perform actions prevented by immobilize and stun even if those actions are granted to the figure outside their turn?
(Errata) No. The “on their turn” phrase listed in the condition section of the rule book should not be there.


I'd just like to point out that the Third Printing version of the rulebook no longer has the "on your turn" clause in its explaination of Stun, Disarm, and Immobilze.
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Clayton Threadgill
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tolhs wrote:
Just a question. What's the definition of the passive items?
Maybe it should be included in the FAQ?

There's no rules definition because it's not a term used in the game.

A passive ability is any ability that doesn't need to be activated - it's always active, or responds automatically to something without the player needing to make the decision.

"Passive item" is just shorthand for any item that grants the user a passive ability.

For example, the ability of the Iron Helmet changes any 2x modifier into a +0 during an attack targeting the character. This ability doesn't require the player to activate or do anything, it just happens, so it's passive.
 
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Daniel Frey
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JayJ79 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that the Third Printing version of the rulebook no longer has the "on your turn" clause in its explaination of Stun, Disarm, and Immobilze.

Good to know that they fixed this . Do you know whether/where the 3rd printing rulebook is digitally available? (So far I've only seen the 2nd printing one)
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Throknor
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daimpi wrote:
JayJ79 wrote:
I'd just like to point out that the Third Printing version of the rulebook no longer has the "on your turn" clause in its explaination of Stun, Disarm, and Immobilze.

Good to know that they fixed this . Do you know whether/where the 3rd printing rulebook is digitally available? (So far I've only seen the 2nd printing one)

Or even better a list of differences? I’d put one together if I had both.
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Alex Florin
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Reply from isaac: the on death effect will take effect because the cultist was not stunned when it played the card.
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Darren Nakamura
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Hmm... That seems like a reversal back to when the rule book said Stun prevents abilities "on your turn."
 
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Sean McCarthy
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I guess the attack isn't an ability? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Graeme
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Dexter345 wrote:
Hmm... That seems like a reversal back to when the rule book said Stun prevents abilities "on your turn."

I read it more that the on-death effect is like shield and retaliate, in that once they're set up, they're passive effects that don't require conscious (or in this case, living) effort.
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Gabriel Rockman
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aflorin wrote:
Reply from isaac: the on death effect will take effect because the cultist was not stunned when it played the card.


This ruling applies to our own summons, too right?

Disarm still stops the on death effect if the Cultist is disarmed AFTER their turn? But if the Cultist was disarmed before their turn, they can still activate the on-death ability while disarmed, and then do the on-death attack after the disarm goes away at the end of their turn?

What if my Cragheart is doing an attack 3 + disarm on the Cultist with Forceful Storm and kills the Cultist with the attack - does the disarm from the attack apply before or after the Cultist gets to do their on-death effect? My guess is that the on-death effect comes first
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Stun prevents abilities and disarm prevents attack abilities. Thus if stun post-turn doesn't stop the attack (as Isaac just ruled), disarm post-turn definitely doesn't.

I'm left wondering what kind of thing this group of attacks is if not an ability. The ruling doesn't seem to fit.
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Gabriel Rockman
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That's a good point. The Cultist probably does get to do this attack while disarmed

Can we get a ruling from Isaac about that?
 
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Joseph Cochran
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Dexter345 wrote:
Hmm... That seems like a reversal back to when the rule book said Stun prevents abilities "on your turn."


If the on death trigger is a passive effect (which I think it is), then the ruling makes perfect sense.
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