Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
69 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

KeyForge: Call of the Archons» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Bait & Switch" how many times? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
♥Dust Pixie♥
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
With the Bait & Switch card, do you repeat the ability once, or do you repeat it until you have more aember?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh Walton
United States
Ada
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Based on the screenshot I found on Google I think the text is:

Bait and Switch

Play: If your opponent has more Aember than you, steal 1 Aember. Repeat this card’s effect if your opponent still has more Aember.

I think you only repeat it once. If the intention were for you to end up with the same amount of Aember when it was all said and done I think it would say “continue repeating this card’s effect until your opponent no longer has more Aember than you.“

I could of course be wrong.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aingeru Malkav
Spain
Bilbao
Bizkaia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Max 6 times.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Claude Hemberger
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
By repeating it, you also repeat the "repeat this card's effect" IMO, so it's more than once.

It's also not affected by the 6 rule IMO, because you don't replay it, it's still the first time you play it, you just keep repeating its effect.


So for me, it's until your opponant doesn't have more than you.
14 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JoeyNine
United States
Tinton Falls
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Keyforge Rulebook Page 7 wrote:
THE RULE OF SIX
Occasionally, a situation may emerge in which, through a combination
of abilities, the same card may be played or used repeatedly during the
same turn. A player cannot play and/or use the same card and/or other
copies of that card (by title) more than six times during a given turn.

It could use some clarification for this card. Is repeating the effect considered multiple uses or all within one use?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
more spam
msg tools
mb
To throw another spanner into thew works, I read that as "as long as your opponent has ANY aember" it doesnt say more then you.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♥Dust Pixie♥
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
“toliveischrist77” wrote:
Based on the screenshot I found on Google I think the text is:

Bait and Switch

Play: If your opponent has more Aember than you, steal 1 Aember. Repeat this card’s effect if your opponent still has more Aember.

I think you only repeat it once. If the intention were for you to end up with the same amount of Aember when it was all said and done I think it would say “continue repeating this card’s effect until your opponent no longer has more Aember than you.“

I could of course be wrong.

I agree with this reading – one time – but I also think that it is ambiguous.

It could’ve been written


Bait and Switch

Play: If your opponent has more Aember than you, steal 1 Aember.
If your opponent still has more Aember, steal an additional
Aember.


or, for the opposite reading:


Bait and Switch

Play: If your opponent has more Aember than you, steal 1 Aember at
a time until your opponent no longer has more Aember than you.


The rule of six is unrelated in either case; the card-by-name is only played once.

One of the things that lead me to lean towards the “only one extra time” reading is that the original text is “Repeat this card’s effect if your opponent still has more Aember”, not “Repeat this card’s effect as long as your opponent still has more Aember”. But programmers can use a repeat+if instead of a while even if that’s bad natural English. Hence ambiguous. Hope to get word from above on this one♥
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♥Dust Pixie♥
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
morespam wrote:
To throw another spanner into thew works, I read that as "as long as your opponent has ANY aember" it doesnt say more then you.

Well, what would cause the indefinite loop — the loop that steals more than an additional time — would be to extend the repeated text to encompass the entire card effect, which would include the repetition (recursively) but also the "has more Aember than you" guard clause.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Spirio
Austria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PRECEEDING, REPEAT THE PRECEEDING
If card text instructs players to repeat a preceeding effect, the entirety of the effect before the text providing the instruction to repeat resolves again.

Does this is a different rule, or would this apply here?
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♥Dust Pixie♥
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jack Spirio wrote:
PRECEEDING, REPEAT THE PRECEEDING
If card text instructs players to repeat a preceeding effect, the entirety of the effect before the text providing the instruction to repeat resolves again.

Does this is a different rule, or would this apply here?

Great find♥
And a case for the "one time" camp.

It's not perfectly settled because it could be argued that this card's text doesn't perfectly fit that template.

But if it does, or is considered to do, then only the part of the effect before the instruction to repeat re-resolves.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Whitford
msg tools
mbmbmb
snth wrote:
Jack Spirio wrote:
PRECEEDING, REPEAT THE PRECEEDING
If card text instructs players to repeat a preceeding effect, the entirety of the effect before the text providing the instruction to repeat resolves again.

Does this is a different rule, or would this apply here?

Great find♥
And a case for the "one time" camp.

It's not perfectly settled because it could be argued that this card's text doesn't perfectly fit that template.

But if it does, or is considered to do, then only the part of the effect before the instruction to repeat re-resolves.
I think it actually supports the opposite, as otherwise it would say "repeat the preceding effect" rather than "repeat this card's effect".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♥Dust Pixie♥
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Swiftfooted wrote:
I think it actually supports the opposite, as otherwise it would say "repeat the preceding effect" rather than "repeat this card's effect".

Good point, yeah. Yeah this is a really poorly worded card.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
vega777
Bulgaria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
snth wrote:
Swiftfooted wrote:
I think it actually supports the opposite, as otherwise it would say "repeat the preceding effect" rather than "repeat this card's effect".

Good point, yeah. Yeah this is a really poorly worded card.
I don't think the card is poorly worded. The "PRECEEDING, REPEAT THE PRECEEDING" rule obviously doesn't apply to this card (as the word "prеceeding" is not in the card's text). You repeat the whole effect (steal + repeat), as chemberger already pointed out.
3 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Garfield
United States
Kirkland
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
Intent: Can repeat multiple times.

I am sure they will take note of the confusion the text has caused.

34 
 Thumb up
1.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David "Davy" Ashleydale
United States
Oakland
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Phelddagrif wrote:
Intent: Can repeat multiple times.

I am sure they will take note of the confusion the text has caused.


So this interpretation is correct?:

Quote:
Bait and Switch

Play: If your opponent has more Aember than you, steal 1 Aember at
a time until your opponent no longer has more Aember than you.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♥Dust Pixie♥
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
vega777 wrote:
snth wrote:
Swiftfooted wrote:
I think it actually supports the opposite, as otherwise it would say "repeat the preceding effect" rather than "repeat this card's effect".

Good point, yeah. Yeah this is a really poorly worded card.
I don't think the card is poorly worded. The "PRECEEDING, REPEAT THE PRECEEDING" rule obviously doesn't apply to this card (as the word "proceeding" is not in the card's text). You repeat the whole effect (steal + repeat), as chemberger already pointed out.

At least one person (Jack Spirio) thought that template applied (I disagreed) so it's not obvious.

This is a very strong card, the Account Siphon (Edited Shipping Manifests) equivalent of Shadows. Easily the strongest card I've seen.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♥Dust Pixie♥
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you for the prompt reply Phelddagriff
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Spirio
Austria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
snth wrote:
vega777 wrote:
snth wrote:
Swiftfooted wrote:
I think it actually supports the opposite, as otherwise it would say "repeat the preceding effect" rather than "repeat this card's effect".

Good point, yeah. Yeah this is a really poorly worded card.
I don't think the card is poorly worded. The "PRECEEDING, REPEAT THE PRECEEDING" rule obviously doesn't apply to this card (as the word "proceeding" is not in the card's text). You repeat the whole effect (steal + repeat), as chemberger already pointed out.

At least one person (Jack Spirio) thought that template applied (I disagreed) so it's not obvious.

This is a very strong card, the Account Siphon (Edited Shipping Manifests) equivalent of Shadows. Easily the strongest card I've seen.

I just found it while reading the rules, I didn't thought it fit perfectly, but maybe could help solve the issue
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♥Dust Pixie♥
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, didn't mean to put you on the spot, I'm sorry.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
GAF Blizzard
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Phelddagrif wrote:
Intent: Can repeat multiple times.

I am sure they will take note of the confusion the text has caused.

Just to be 100% sure I understand, is this meant to ignore the rule of six since it's a single activation?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Garfield
United States
Kirkland
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
I believe that is true. (The rule of 6 is a late addition to cover problem cases that have not actually happened but are possible. I could see it changing as we learn better).

8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♥Dust Pixie♥
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Btw, here is a math shortcut (since I saw someone misplay this on youtube today): Provided they have more than you, mentally add together your amber and your opponents amber. Divide that by two, giving yourself the odd one if it's an uneven number.

(In the game, they also had "too much to protect" in hand, and the opponent had 10 amber and they had three. They chose B&S, ending up with 6/7 -- correct, but, TMtP would've given them 6/8 since it comes with an amber of its own.)

Since TMtP is often better at higher numbers and B&S better at lower numbers, it's a judgment call which of the two cards you want to save for later. He did end up winning, using his TMtP later, so
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ravi Bhikhie
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
So the intent of this card is to basically even out the amount of Æmber between the players?

So if I would have 10 Æmber somehow, and my opponent who plays the card has only 2, after Bait and Switch is resolved, we would end up with 6 Æmber on my side and 6 on theirs?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Luke DeWitt
United States
Highlands Ranch
CO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just a quick counter point for assuming "repeat until".

Logos has this card:

Bouncing Deathquark

Play: Destroy an enemy creature and a friendly creature. You may repeat this effect as many times as you like as long as it is possible to repeat the entire effect.

From this You Tube video of a Key Forge GamePlay at the 33:08 mark:

https://youtu.be/B3w-vNWEzAI



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Danny Perello
Canada
Salmo
British Columbia
flag msg tools
badge
Want DnDeeples? I'm on Esty as MagnificentMeeples.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lanewalkerx wrote:
Just a quick counter point for assuming "repeat until".

Logos has this card:

Bouncing Deathquark

Play: Destroy an enemy creature and a friendly creature. You may repeat this effect as many times as you like as long as it is possible to repeat the entire effect.
The key here is that Bouncing Deathquark says, "You may repeat..." That's a pretty important difference.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   |