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Subject: 60 Years of Wargame Evolution rss

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David Dockter
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Put this together recently. Hope to get it tarted up and published, sooner than later. Just low resolution draft posted here arrrh



You can get a MUCH better peak at it here: http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?233@@.1dd309ee/3014!enclosu...
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kevin halloran
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David, I hope you do get it published. I'm no expert but to me it's very impressive, both decorative and informative. Nice one.
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Nick West
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Very nice! All I would disagree with is Charles Roberts as the "founder of the wargames hobby".

Commercial board wargaming hobby maybe, but H.G. Well's with his 1913 publication Little Wars and Lieutenant Georg Leopold von Reiswitz and his son Georg Heinrich Rudolf von Reiswitz of the Prussian Army with their 1812 map and block staff training wargame "Kriegsspiel" might disagree with you.
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David Lopez
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notquitekarpov wrote:
Very nice! All I would disagree with is Charles Roberts as the "founder of the wargames hobby".

Founder of the modern wargames hobby would be more I accurate I think.
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Can you elaborate in detail how wargames mechanics have been changed changed from year to year? And how it is corresponding with our views on historic subjects?
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Seems like the most contentious area could be your definition & selection of game changers.
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J J
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kuhrusty wrote:
Seems like the most contentious area could be your definition & selection of game changers.

Oh I don't know. I see more contention in the entire category of wargames (and associated designers) that is entirely omitted.
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John Middleton
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You could just make a chart that features 60 years of people complaining about AH CRTs.

Save lots of work that way.
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John Middleton
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notquitekarpov wrote:
Very nice! All I would disagree with is Charles Roberts as the "founder of the wargames hobby".

Commercial board wargaming hobby maybe, but H.G. Well's with his 1913 publication Little Wars and Lieutenant Georg Leopold von Reiswitz and his son Georg Heinrich Rudolf von Reiswitz of the Prussian Army with their 1812 map and block staff training wargame "Kriegsspiel" might disagree with you.

Miniature wargaming, military wargaming, and board wargaming are three separate things.
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kevin halloran
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Hm, David, despite my initial enthusiasm (which is unabated) I see your ship may be heading for the maelstrom. You might perhaps amend the description to add: "A Personal View" and sell the chart with an accompanying 60 page book explaining your various choices.
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Nick West
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DegenerateElite wrote:
notquitekarpov wrote:
Very nice! All I would disagree with is Charles Roberts as the "founder of the wargames hobby".

Commercial board wargaming hobby maybe, but H.G. Well's with his 1913 publication Little Wars and Lieutenant Georg Leopold von Reiswitz and his son Georg Heinrich Rudolf von Reiswitz of the Prussian Army with their 1812 map and block staff training wargame "Kriegsspiel" might disagree with you.

Miniature wargaming, military wargaming, and board wargaming are three separate things.

I agree, and Charles Roberts was the modern father of only one of those.
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John Middleton
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notquitekarpov wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
notquitekarpov wrote:
Very nice! All I would disagree with is Charles Roberts as the "founder of the wargames hobby".

Commercial board wargaming hobby maybe, but H.G. Well's with his 1913 publication Little Wars and Lieutenant Georg Leopold von Reiswitz and his son Georg Heinrich Rudolf von Reiswitz of the Prussian Army with their 1812 map and block staff training wargame "Kriegsspiel" might disagree with you.

Miniature wargaming, military wargaming, and board wargaming are three separate things.

I agree, and Charles Roberts was the modern father of only one of those.

The title of the chart defines wargame in this context as "historical conflict boardgames" so the use of term wargame throughout excludes minis and military.
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David Dockter
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winheath wrote:
David, I hope you do get it published. I'm no expert but to me it's very impressive, both decorative and informative. Nice one.

Thank you. Was a lot of work...but damm fun putting it together. Got a mate lined up, hopefully, to tart it up for us.

Jim_Hatama wrote:
Can you elaborate in detail how wargames mechanics have been changed changed from year to year? And how it is corresponding with our views on historic subjects?

If I get some spare cycles. I'm hoping others may; using that chart and other data/insight. I do think there is a fascinating arc on the chart; evident by category/time/game weight. And, some ghosts that can be laid to rest.

winheath wrote:
Hm, David, despite my initial enthusiasm (which is unabated) I see your ship may be heading for the maelstrom. You might perhaps amend the description to add: "A Personal View" and sell the chart with an accompanying 60 page book explaining your various choices.

Maelstrom? Nah....noise. There will be noise. Always. Guaranteed. Happens anytime you create and put it out there.

And, yes, it's arbitrary: what's included/what's not. By definition, it is my personal view based upon data & analysis....with input from a few mates. Put one BIG asterisk on that chart.

Just take it for what's it's worth; one punter's initial view (I may tweak based upon constructive feedback) of things that I distilled. Needed to see it (the evolution of wargame story over 60 years) on one poster; got a bug. Something I can toss on a bar or lair wall, have a beer and spout off regarding various wargame story dynamics/mechancis with my mates.

I think there are some interesting trends one can see on that chart....good ones. What a fantastic hobby we have; fabulous content/story, great times and interesting characters. Anyways, enjoy (or not). devil
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Pelle Nilsson
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DegenerateElite wrote:
notquitekarpov wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
notquitekarpov wrote:
Very nice! All I would disagree with is Charles Roberts as the "founder of the wargames hobby".

Commercial board wargaming hobby maybe, but H.G. Well's with his 1913 publication Little Wars and Lieutenant Georg Leopold von Reiswitz and his son Georg Heinrich Rudolf von Reiswitz of the Prussian Army with their 1812 map and block staff training wargame "Kriegsspiel" might disagree with you.

Miniature wargaming, military wargaming, and board wargaming are three separate things.

I agree, and Charles Roberts was the modern father of only one of those.

The title of the chart defines wargame in this context as "historical conflict boardgames" so the use of term wargame throughout excludes minis and military.

There are many older board (non-military, non-miniatures) wargames pre-Roberts (and minaturea pre-Well and military games pre-Reisswitz). (Reisswitz the elder was a civilian btw and his game was as far as I know not ever used for military training, unlike his son's 1824 game?)

Old Wargames/Kriegsspiels
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Jim Doughan
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Herr Dr. is in a manic phase again. Someone check his meds.


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JPotter - Bits77
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Pink star balloons ... interesting choice.
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Michael Lind
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Great work!

I'd have to devote an entire wall of my game room to a chart that covered all the folks and games that have provided a hobby for me for the last 50+ years.

As for people, how about John Hill, Frank Alan Chadwick, Chad Jensen?

Man, you took on an enormous job and did a great job of getting it on paper.

I applaud your efforts and work ethic!
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David Dockter
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Thank you. I'll bet a missed a few fab designers/designs. One of the issues with what gets distilled; what gets left out.

Uckshme wrote:
Herr Dr. is in a manic phase again. Someone check his meds.
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Yep. Taking a break tomorrow, Jimbo. Let's get a French 75 or two soon in the hotbed of the rebellion

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Robert Stuart
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Excellent, and I hope you get it published.

But I think Band of Brothers should be included. It represents a significant development in squad-level wargaming.
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Tom Drueding
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Fantastic David, this makes me happy.

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David Dockter
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Aardvarkius wrote:
Great work!

I'd have to devote an entire wall of my game room to a chart that covered all the folks and games that have provided a hobby for me for the last 50+ years.

As for people, how about John Hill, Frank Alan Chadwick, Chad Jensen?

Man, you took on an enormous job and did a great job of getting it on paper.

I applaud your efforts and work ethic!

Thank you. My goal is to get a few of these posters up on walls: and, I have an idea for a few interesting walls in particular devil Post a pic if you do; I will.

bob_santafe wrote:
Excellent, and I hope you get it published.

But I think Band of Brothers should be included. It represents a significant development in squad-level wargaming.

I thought I had it: 2005? See pic...but that's something else (I'm not a tactical gamer). Oye....getting old...



drueding wrote:
Fantastic David, this makes me happy.


Then my work is done; was the other purpose of the work - I know a number of us couldn't sleep until we got the one missing chart that has been bugging us for years
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Pelle Nilsson
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We had a very short discussion about the possibility of Roberts being influenced by earlier wargames or not about a year ago:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/27224626#27224626

I think there was some connection to the earlier games, but it is just speculation, nothing that can be proven (e.g. see Jon Peterson's Playing At The World for some quality speculation on this topic). Not saying that Roberts does not deserved being called the father of modern wargames, or possibly American wargames since very little of the older civilian wargames seems to have reached outside of Europe.
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Patrick Pence
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Looks awesome. I will definitely want a printed and signed copy to frame!

I would suggest moving the Game Changer balloon from Commands & Colors: Ancients to Battle Cry, since that was Borg's first foray into the Commands & Colors System in 2000.

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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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Trying to wrap my head around Combat Commander being a game changer, but Up Front not... ???

[Psst, also, where is Cataclysm!??]
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Jason Albert
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Cool poster, but I think it would be better if all of my favorite games were classified and charted exactly how and where I want them to be. All I can offer you for help is strident bitching. As always, thank you for your service.
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