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Subject: Containing Woodland Alliance - how to defeat them? rss

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Charlie Theel
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Necr0mancer wrote:
IMO the best way to contain the WA is to let them put out the 4 (?) low-cost sympathy and then surround those clearing with 3+ warriors (obviously, a coalition from the other players). This will make it cost 3 cards to put out more sympathy. After that, mostly ignore them until they put bases out.


I don't think this would work in the games I've played. Most WA players go for a base with just 2-3 of Sympathy on the board so they have more agency (able to get out warriors, increase their card draw, etc.)

Once they get a base, you don't want them to have 4 Sympathy, as they could buildup warriors and pull a large Organize off, so the 3+ warrior barrier will not do much.

The WA player really needs to get a base out by turn 2 or 3 as suggested earlier in the thread, otherwise they simply won't keep up with other factions. The best way to thwart this as an opponent is to limit their Sympathy spread before they plop that base down. It makes the base more vulnerable and keeps the massive organize maneuver more distant.
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Joe V
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charlest wrote:
terminus467 wrote:
Ravendas wrote:
Necr0mancer wrote:
I think that something that people miss when playing against the WA is how their Supporter Card economy works. Take this as an example;

On their first turn of the game, the WA puts down three sympathy. One is in a Mouse Clearing. They get 2pts three times.

On the Cats next turn they attack the sympathy in the mouse clearing. Its returned to the WA a players board, and the Cat player adds a mouse card to the WA players Supporters box.

On their next turn the WA uses the mouse card he got from the Cat player to put sympathy back into the mouse clearing, gaining 2 more points. The cost to the WA player to put this sympathy down is exactly what he got from the Cat player when the Cat player attacked. By attacking the Sympathy the cat player allowed the WA player to get 2 free points.

The WA isn't limited by how much sympathy they can put on the board if they have enough cards. The only real restriction that they have is that they have to have sympathy before they can place a base. While denying the WA bases is good, bases don't inherently give VPs. Often the WA's warriors can be contained easier then their sympathy

It seems to me that the best way to disrupt the WA's supporters economy is to

1) Keep 3 or more warriors in spaces. This will cause the WA to pay an additional card when placing sympathy.

2) Don't destroy sympathy when it will put it back in the "1 card" tier. Only destroy sympathy beyond that.

3) If possible, look at the board and only destroy sympathy only when;

You can't give them a card matching the area that you just destroyed, hoping they don't get it off the top of the deck (if you think they want to replace the symapthy)- or -

You can give them a card matching the area you just destroyed (If you think that they would prefer to place the sympathy elsewhere, denying them a chance to draw a card that will let them do so)

4) Move into sympathetic clearings as infrequently as possible.


Er, one huge mistake.

VP track for sympathy is:
1
1
1
2
2
3
4
4
4
4

Their first three tokens net the destroyer the same amount of vp's as the WA get for placing them. That's why it's suggested to keep them at 3 or fewer. If you let them have 5 out at once, that's when they suddenly get 3/4/4/4 or however many they can place in a turn. This is where the "Oh wow they are overpowered, they can get 11-15pts in a round!"

Yes, they can, if you don't keep them quashed.


BUT, the destroyer has to spend an action whereas the WA do not, necessarily. AND the destroyer is GIVING a card to the WA (-1 for opponent, +1 for WA) whereas the WA action is just spending a card to discard (-1 for WA, 0 for opponent).

So just placing the same influence back and getting it removed over and over is a winning game for the WA, even if it's one of the +1 vp tokens. If you get to +2 or higher, it's of course that much better.


If the WA are constantly just replacing their 1VP sympathy tokens, they will not win the game. They won't be able to easily craft if you contain them, and it would require 10 turns to win if you're gaining 3VP a turn. The game doesn't go 10 turns.

Every faction needs to hit a tipping point where they explode in their VP yield. The WA win because people have a hard time identifying that tipping point for them. You need to harass them as much as they harass you and work to keep them at bay.


Not what I'm saying. When I said "winning game" I meant that that was a positive transaction for the WA. Sorry, should have been more clear. You obviously won't win scoring one point or even two points each turn.

Ravendas wrote:
terminus467 wrote:
Ravendas wrote:
Necr0mancer wrote:
I think that something that people miss when playing against the WA is how their Supporter Card economy works. Take this as an example;

On their first turn of the game, the WA puts down three sympathy. One is in a Mouse Clearing. They get 2pts three times.

On the Cats next turn they attack the sympathy in the mouse clearing. Its returned to the WA a players board, and the Cat player adds a mouse card to the WA players Supporters box.

On their next turn the WA uses the mouse card he got from the Cat player to put sympathy back into the mouse clearing, gaining 2 more points. The cost to the WA player to put this sympathy down is exactly what he got from the Cat player when the Cat player attacked. By attacking the Sympathy the cat player allowed the WA player to get 2 free points.

The WA isn't limited by how much sympathy they can put on the board if they have enough cards. The only real restriction that they have is that they have to have sympathy before they can place a base. While denying the WA bases is good, bases don't inherently give VPs. Often the WA's warriors can be contained easier then their sympathy

It seems to me that the best way to disrupt the WA's supporters economy is to

1) Keep 3 or more warriors in spaces. This will cause the WA to pay an additional card when placing sympathy.

2) Don't destroy sympathy when it will put it back in the "1 card" tier. Only destroy sympathy beyond that.

3) If possible, look at the board and only destroy sympathy only when;

You can't give them a card matching the area that you just destroyed, hoping they don't get it off the top of the deck (if you think they want to replace the symapthy)- or -

You can give them a card matching the area you just destroyed (If you think that they would prefer to place the sympathy elsewhere, denying them a chance to draw a card that will let them do so)

4) Move into sympathetic clearings as infrequently as possible.


Er, one huge mistake.

VP track for sympathy is:
1 1 1 2 2 3 4 4 4 4

Their first three tokens net the destroyer the same amount of vp's as the WA get for placing them. That's why it's suggested to keep them at 3 or fewer. If you let them have 5 out at once, that's when they suddenly get 3/4/4/4 or however many they can place in a turn. This is where the "Oh wow they are overpowered, they can get 11-15pts in a round!"

Yes, they can, if you don't keep them quashed.


BUT, the destroyer has to spend an action whereas the WA do not, necessarily. AND the destroyer is GIVING a card to the WA (-1 for opponent, +1 for WA) whereas the WA action is just spending a card to discard (-1 for WA, 0 for opponent).

So just placing the same influence back and getting it removed over and over is a winning game for the WA, even if it's one of the +1 vp tokens. If you get to +2 or higher, it's of course that much better.


Eyrie with their possible loads of attack actions would love the WA in this situation. Also with their ability to use up birds and control what they slot, the often times will not have the matching card to give up.

So instead it's an action (which they can get many of) to get 2vp (despot) and lose zero cards, whereas the WA just gets 1vp for placing it, and are card neutral (one in, one out).

Eyrie are really good at keeping WA in check.


If the Eyrie put a ton of actions dedicated to killing WA sympathy, unless they're getting incredibly lucky with card draws, it will be a trivial matter of letting them go into turmoil by just not spreading sympathy there. Putting a ton of actions into attack is risky business. But I agree, they're good at it.
 
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