Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
32 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Complaint Department

Subject: Deletion of Post and Suspension Threat rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jeff Johnson
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yesterday, I had a note deleted and was threatened with suspension. I am extremely upset about this, and outraged. I even had trouble getting to sleep last night, which is ridiculous. Of course, I also had the transmission go on my car three days after my other car got totalled. But I digress.

The thread was one which complained about "mansplaining." A couple of posters complained about the term. That prompted this response from the admin:

"Mansplaining is a thing. This is the Women and Gaming forum, where mansplaining in the context of board games is certainly a relevant topic. If you do not like the topic or are tempted to argue about its relevance, please instead ignore this thread and go find another thread to participate in."

My post was a response to that. To the best of my memory (because the post has been deleted), I said, "I find that post very offensive. If I were the type to be offended. And I hate that word with a burning passion."

Later that day, my post was deleted, and I got this message:

"The above post has been removed due to being disruptive and unwelcome. Do not post again in this thread. Doing so will result in a suspension of your posting privileges."

The post I responded to was offensive in several ways. For one thing, make no mistake: "Mansplaining" is an offensive term. Declaring by administrative fiat that it is "a thing" does not change that. It has been criticized as inherently biased, dismissive, a double standard, derogatory, part of a current cycle of misandry, sexist, and tone-deaf. Even the person credited with coining the term has said, "I was a bit ambivalent about the word because it seems a little bit more condemnatory of the male of the species than I ever wanted it to be."

Is it one of the most offensive words? No. But it is offensive to many, and no amount of admin-splaining is going to change that.

The post is also offensive in another way. It implies that women are delicate flowers who must be protected from the rough and tumble of male comments, even innocuous ones. And I don't believe that's the case.

So I responded, and gave my opinion of the comment and the word. And I received the deletion and the threat.

I'm outraged and disgusted. And I don't outrage or disgust easily. I think the last time was election night (I apologize for the gratuitous political joke).

I think I'm going to suspend myself for a while, and refrain from posting. I certainly won't be posting in the Women's forum again, which I'm sure is no great loss. I do enjoy posting, but right now I have a very bad taste in my mouth. It will probably fade. Either way, BGG will be fine.

9 
 Thumb up
0.30
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Miller
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My response to your post was also deleted, because I copied your post.

BGG disagrees. BGG finds that complaining about such things is a tactic of those who oppose such things. Especially in the "Women & Gaming" forum, you need to show restraint. If you choose not to, you can go elsewhere...
14 
 Thumb up
0.06
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jerbear
United States
Loveland
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
1 Million Shogoths Killed and Counting.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't see how you think Mansplaining is offensive.

According to Google:

man·splain
manˈsplān/Submit
verbINFORMAL
gerund or present participle: mansplaining

(of a man) explain (something) to someone, typically a woman, in a manner regarded as condescending or patronizing.

"I'm listening to a guy mansplain economics to his wife"

It happens, what about it is offensive? You went into a place specifically made for women. Men are not banned, but they are expected to be respectful. You insist that they are using a word offensive to you (and other apparently), in their house. The only thing you could possibly be objecting to is that Man is a part of the word, but it accurately describes the situation the OP was talking about.

You are beating a dead horse here and not taking a moment to see you are the one making a problem here. I suggest you just let it go.

32 
 Thumb up
2.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Daly
United States
Pasadena
California
flag msg tools
For a really good essay on the non-gender-specific quality of the "know it all" phenomenon (and the subtle gender differences), read this: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-oe-daum-mansplaining-201501...

But, yes, as a guy I can definitely vouch for the fact that mansplaining is, indeed, "a thing."
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Thunkd
United States
Northampton
MA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
The post I responded to was offensive in several ways. For one thing, make no mistake: "Mansplaining" is an offensive term.
There's a difference between "something you take offense to" and "offensive". There's lot of things that offend me that aren't considered generally offensive. My opinion about how offensive something is, well, it's only relevant to me. If the general public doesn't agree that it's offensive, then I'll be the lone crackpot disagreeing with them and no one else will consider it offensive.

I don't particlarly find mansplaining offensive and I know many people who've used the term. I can't recall ever hearing anyone else say they were offended by it. I think this might be a opinion that's particular to you.

TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
The post is also offensive in another way. It implies that women are delicate flowers who must be protected from the rough and tumble of male comments, even innocuous ones. And I don't believe that's the case.
I don't take it that way. Say we changed it to a more general form, where it applied to anyone explaining something obvious to a person of any gender... like "jerksplaining". And I said "Bob's jerksplaining something to Jeff." Just noting that it's happening doesn't imply that you need to be protected from Bob. So I don't see why a more restricted form of the word that's specific to men lecturing women would imply that the woman would need to be protected. The fact that you see it that way perhaps says something about your inherent biases about men and women.

TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
So I responded, and gave my opinion of the comment and the word. And I received the deletion and the threat.
Yeah... so you already said you saw the bit where it said "If you do not like the topic or are tempted to argue about its relevance". So I don't see the issue here. You were warned, you disobeyed and then you got reprimanded. Did you expect anything else?

TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
I'm outraged and disgusted.
Perhaps you're investing too much into the goings on of an online board game discussion forum. It's generally not a good sign when something so insignificant has such a profound negative impact on you.

TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
I think I'm going to suspend myself for a while, and refrain from posting.
Removing yourself from a situation that's causing you anger and outrage sounds like a wise course of action. Perhaps some time and distance will give you more perspective and an ability to approach this topic without raising such powerful negative emotions.
29 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
river tam
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Woman do need a place to discuss how to handle sexism they experience when gaming and the women and gaming forum has been designated the place to do so on bgg. Discussing how behavior women experience as sexist isn’t really sexist is not helpful to women seeking advice there and has in the past overwhelm constructive discussion so is barred. There are plenty of places on the internet to discuss your feelings so about the term mansplaing so I would encourage to use those spaces rather than woman and gaming forum.
44 
 Thumb up
2.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derry Salewski
United States
Augusta
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
I'm only happy when it rains...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It is a trolling, dogwistley word. Like certain acroynms that self identified bgg mods have banned, justifiably.

As bad as others? No. Not at all. Not even close. But still offensive.

But it's a double standard on bgg and while I'd like to think they'll correct it, they won't. Octavian doesn't change his mind about imposing his views on others.

Shrugs.

His site.

12 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Johnson
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I probably didn't explain myself very well. My problem is not with the thread or the term. Sure, I do think "mansplaining" is mildly offensive, but it's no big deal. My problem is with the admin comment, proclaiming that it is "a thing," and the subsequent actions. I would not have posted in the thread but for the comment, and I was responding to the admin, not the other posters. I thought the comment was inappropriate, and I said it. I thought the deletion and threat was more inappropriate. I pride myself in not being disruptive, disrespectful, or insulting (I plead guilty to sarcastic). I could be wrong. I've been wrong many times before. I try to always play devil's advocate with myself and challenge my most deeply held beliefs, many of which I've changed over the years. But as of now, I find the admin's actions to be wrong, even if well-intentioned.

Of course, it's their website, and they can do whatever they want.
8 
 Thumb up
0.07
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We don't know which admin removed your post(s).

I have written a post to that thread three times, but always decided to not post, twice because it wasn't relevant to the op, and once even when it would've added some of my own experiences.

Sometimes you just have to know when your contribution isn't constructive, or when any answer would be misinterpreted.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris in Kansai
Japan
Otsu
Shiga
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
I probably didn't explain myself very well. My problem is not with the thread or the term. Sure, I do think "mansplaining" is mildly offensive, but it's no big deal. My problem is with the admin comment, proclaiming that it is "a thing," and the subsequent actions. I would not have posted in the thread but for the comment, and I was responding to the admin, not the other posters. I thought the comment was inappropriate, and I said it. I thought the deletion and threat was more inappropriate. I pride myself in not being disruptive, disrespectful, or insulting (I plead guilty to sarcastic). I could be wrong. I've been wrong many times before. I try to always play devil's advocate with myself and challenge my most deeply held beliefs, many of which I've changed over the years. But as of now, I find the admin's actions to be wrong, even if well-intentioned.

Of course, it's their website, and they can do whatever they want.


You'll understand better if you look into the reasons why the Women and Gaming forum (or Rainbow forum for that matter) were created in the first place.
17 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Cieslik
United States
Arlington
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Banana!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd like to thank whatever moderator took the action. It sounds like it was appropriate and effective moderation, especially in the Women and Gaming forum.

Moderating's a tough job, and I don't think they receive enough praise for the job they do.
40 
 Thumb up
1.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Poland
Warsaw
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
My post in the same threat was also deleted. I wrote there that calling it mansplaining is needlessly sexist and this could just be called patronizing . Maybe that was what got it removed, hard for me to judge, I also shared my teaching experience and an opinion that being upfront in such situation is the best thing to do.

I do believe however it would have been beneficial if a) bgg did not hide which moderator did what, moderator like all people can make mistakes (I am not implying this was such) and it is good to know who made the decision. b) if moderator marked what was the offending part. Other forums I know do it by quoting and bolding the sentence.

I don't personally agree with censorship policies and keep some opinions out of discussion, however bgg is for me a place to talk about games and I would like to keep to any posting guidelines there are. It is however hard to do so if moderator fail to show what was the transgression.
4 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Herb
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
angelkurisu wrote:
I'd like to thank whatever moderator took the action. It sounds like it was appropriate and effective moderation, especially in the Women and Gaming forum.


I do think that the BGG admins go overboard once in a while, but I look at it as if it was a bad call by a referee in a sports game. You just have to shake it off and go on. The major factor is that the BGG admins actively try to head off any flame war in the forums. To that end they do a good job.

I've posted in the Women and Gaming forum a couple of times. I caught myself a couple of times wanting to post a smart ass comment and decided that as a male that I should just stay out of that forum. So I don't subscribe to it and I don't even look at it anymore.


angelkurisu wrote:
Moderating's a tough job, and I don't think they receive enough praise for the job they do.


I'd agree with this sentiment. Most of the admins are unpaid volunteers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean Tompkins
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line!
badge
You know what would be funny...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So, when specifically instructed by the moderator to take discussion about IF mansplaining is a thing, or complaining about the term, etc to a different thread, and then you replied in the same thread with content specifically warned about by the moderator, your post was deleted. I fail to see why you are surprised or angry. Go take the discussion to the RSP forum and discuss away...
27 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Clarke
United Kingdom
Caithness
Scotland
flag msg tools
Avatar
angelkurisu wrote:
Moderating's a tough job, and I don't think they receive enough praise for the job they do.

Agreed, and to be on the receiving end of a bit of modsplaining never hurt anyone.

8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
My problem is with the admin comment, proclaiming that it is "a thing," and the subsequent actions. I would not have posted in the thread but for the comment, and I was responding to the admin, not the other posters.

Then it sounds like you were derailing the thread, or helping other people derail the thread. It seems like mail to the admin or a new thread in Complaints would have been a better way to go.
26 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J J
Australia
flag msg tools
TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
I probably didn't explain myself very well. My problem is not with the thread or the term. Sure, I do think "mansplaining" is mildly offensive, but it's no big deal. My problem is with the admin comment, proclaiming that it is "a thing," and the subsequent actions. I would not have posted in the thread but for the comment, and I was responding to the admin, not the other posters. I thought the comment was inappropriate, and I said it. I thought the deletion and threat was more inappropriate. I pride myself in not being disruptive, disrespectful, or insulting (I plead guilty to sarcastic). I could be wrong. I've been wrong many times before. I try to always play devil's advocate with myself and challenge my most deeply held beliefs, many of which I've changed over the years. But as of now, I find the admin's actions to be wrong, even if well-intentioned.

Of course, it's their website, and they can do whatever they want.


For several years now BGG has been struggling with the following phenomenon:

Someone will post about a controversial subject that happens to be central to the experiences of people (such as mansplaining).

The thread gets going, but keeps getting interjections from people who deny that the subject is important or even exists. People get wound up by this, and the subject is derailed away from discussion of the subject into a shit-fight about whether or not the subject is even real.

The admins come in and moderate people being nasty. The thread continues, but the interjections and subsequent derailings keep going. Eventually the thread dies because nobody can get it back onto the original subject, or it is so bad it gets locked by the admins.

See the problem here?

Some conversations just can't be had because of this, and BGG thinks that those conversations should be possible and even encouraged.

This is BGG's new solution to the problem, and for once it is pro-active - if you enter one of these threads and start posting that the subject isn't "a thing", if you question the legitimacy of the conversation itself, then you're going to have your post deleted and you will receive a warning or a suspension. And by having the post removed, and quotes of it hidden, the derailment gets snuffed out in a way that Octavian's big red blocks of text just could not match.
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis McCown
United States
Uniontown
OH
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Every topic gets derailed by contrarians. It's the nature of the beast. They do what they can.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Myers
United States
Redmond
WA
flag msg tools
Mandelbrot/Simurgh hybrid etc etc
badge
I made both of these fractals, hurray!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Chrysm wrote:
TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
I probably didn't explain myself very well. My problem is not with the thread or the term. Sure, I do think "mansplaining" is mildly offensive, but it's no big deal. My problem is with the admin comment, proclaiming that it is "a thing," and the subsequent actions. I would not have posted in the thread but for the comment, and I was responding to the admin, not the other posters. I thought the comment was inappropriate, and I said it. I thought the deletion and threat was more inappropriate. I pride myself in not being disruptive, disrespectful, or insulting (I plead guilty to sarcastic). I could be wrong. I've been wrong many times before. I try to always play devil's advocate with myself and challenge my most deeply held beliefs, many of which I've changed over the years. But as of now, I find the admin's actions to be wrong, even if well-intentioned.

Of course, it's their website, and they can do whatever they want.


You'll understand better if you look into the reasons why the Women and Gaming forum (or Rainbow forum for that matter) were created in the first place.


No, he won't.
9 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Johnson
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Terwox wrote:
Chrysm wrote:
TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
I probably didn't explain myself very well. My problem is not with the thread or the term. Sure, I do think "mansplaining" is mildly offensive, but it's no big deal. My problem is with the admin comment, proclaiming that it is "a thing," and the subsequent actions. I would not have posted in the thread but for the comment, and I was responding to the admin, not the other posters. I thought the comment was inappropriate, and I said it. I thought the deletion and threat was more inappropriate. I pride myself in not being disruptive, disrespectful, or insulting (I plead guilty to sarcastic). I could be wrong. I've been wrong many times before. I try to always play devil's advocate with myself and challenge my most deeply held beliefs, many of which I've changed over the years. But as of now, I find the admin's actions to be wrong, even if well-intentioned.

Of course, it's their website, and they can do whatever they want.


You'll understand better if you look into the reasons why the Women and Gaming forum (or Rainbow forum for that matter) were created in the first place.


No, he won't.


Really? What the hell do you know about me? Do you know that I've spent my entire legal career helping poor people, minorities, women and children when I could have taken my ivy league law degree and represented corporations and rich people? You've apparently labeled me as sexist and homophobic knowing nothing about me. That's the kind of knee-jerk thinking that gives progressivism a bad name. My apologies if I've misconstrued your comment.
8 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
K S
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmb
TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
The post I responded to was offensive in several ways. For one thing, make no mistake: "Mansplaining" is an offensive term. Declaring by administrative fiat that it is "a thing" does not change that. It has been criticized as inherently biased, dismissive, a double standard, derogatory, part of a current cycle of misandry, sexist, and tone-deaf. Even the person credited with coining the term has said, "I was a bit ambivalent about the word because it seems a little bit more condemnatory of the male of the species than I ever wanted it to be."

Is it one of the most offensive words? No. But it is offensive to many, and no amount of admin-splaining is going to change that.

The post is also offensive in another way. It implies that women are delicate flowers who must be protected from the rough and tumble of male comments, even innocuous ones. And I don't believe that's the case.

Thanks for that mansplanation, bro.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TheGodsMustBeCrazy wrote:
Terwox wrote:

Really? What the hell do you know about me?

Probably just that you don't like the admins saying mansplaining is a thing in boardgaming, misandry is a serious concern of yours, and that you thought someone else's thread in Women & Gaming was the right place to make your stand.
27 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis McCown
United States
Uniontown
OH
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That escalated quickly.

He can have a voice without criticism. It’s ok to just say “I disagree with you “ isn’t it?
3 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J J
Australia
flag msg tools
Travdaddy11 wrote:
That escalated quickly.

He can have a voice without criticism. It’s ok to just say “I disagree with you “ isn’t it?


Not in a thread where the head admin has just gone out of his way to post that disagreeing with the basic premise is forbidden because it is a deliberately derailing event, no.

And that's exactly what happened. The post he's complaining about was, if I recall correctly, the first deleted post after this warning (two posts down).
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J J
Australia
flag msg tools
Travdaddy11 wrote:
Every topic gets derailed by contrarians. It's the nature of the beast. They do what they can.


Are you suggesting that because this is a thing that happens, that it should be permitted? That BGG should just let it go on and ruin attempts at conversation?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.