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Alexander Wrede
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I understand your reasoning. Just to be sure and to avoid similar problems in the future, would you care to explain where the line runs: When someone asks about what could be done to stop brunettes from stealing, would it be allowed to state that stealing has nothing to do with hair color, or would be only allowed to give constructive advice on how to better observe brunettes?
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alingex wrote:
Just to be sure and to avoid similar problems in the future, would you care to explain where the line runs
Most moderation systems will have some gray areas and ambiguities. Imagine a policy about name calling... Will they allow you to call someone else a #*@!? How about a 'jerk'? How about calling them difficult? Where do you draw the line? It's hard to say. It might be situational. It might be influenced by a person's past history, where someone who has crossed that line many times is watched closer than someone who has always been civil.

I can't give you an answer that you will perfectly detail what is and isn't allowed. I can reference the rule and say that if you're clearly on one side or the other of it you'll know. And that in those ambiguous borderline situations you might or might not get away with behavior that's questionable. But that's a risk you run when you push the edge of what's acceptable.

Use your best judgement. If you do, you'll mostly be okay and the admins will steer you in the right direction when you're not. If you find yourself getting moderated on a recurring/frequent basis then that's a signal that you're not following the rules very well and that you need to adjust your behavior and rethink your assumptions about where the border is and what's acceptable.
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alingex wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:


I agree with you on that. I just sent this mail to Octavian:

Quote:
I'm not sure if I'm right about this, but I wanted to tell you this nevertheless. Please, just decide for yourself.

I want to report problematic, unbalanced moderation in this thread:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/30104352#30104352

A lot of posts have been deleted already, even those I found to be constructive and topic-related. It's a discussion about "mansplaining". While in fact there were several posts that were probably derailing the discussion, I think that many posts were deleted unjustified.

Some users think that the term "mansplaining" itself is sexist. It should be allowed to state that. To clarify, nobody wants to play down the problem that is called "mansplaining". Men treating women in a condescending way is sexism. But: It should not be allowed to counter sexism with more sexism. Both are wrong. It's not a solution to say that this problem should be discussed somewhere else. If someone uses sexist terms, it can't be a solution to address that problem somewhere else.

Kindest regards
Alex


I was part of this thread, making fun of all the men explaining mansplaining to women, and I was deleted. I have no problem with this at all. I wasn't contributing constructively to the OPs question as posed, so away I go.

More power to Octavian I say.
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alingex wrote:
I understand your reasoning. Just to be sure and to avoid similar problems in the future, would you care to explain where the line runs: When someone asks about what could be done to stop brunettes from stealing, would it be allowed to state that stealing has nothing to do with hair color, or would be only allowed to give constructive advice on how to better observe brunettes?


Please do remember the vector that most disruptors utilize, which is to parse away from the main point of the conversation... as if to defend justice and honesty, but their ultimate goal is just to derail the OP's destination.

I guess those "clever" techniques really aren't so cleverly disguised and will be derezzed from this day forward.

Just another broken tool removed from the useless tool's box.

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darthhugo wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:


Please, do elaborate.


I posted a comment in the thread which was pulled by the moderator in a very quick time.
Personally I felt that my post was unfairly removed. My post was not sexist racist or politically incorrect. My post was a juxtaposed argument however my use of a quote was probably not my best decision. However my post was in support of the OP but taken from the male perspective. Possibly the intended message came across wrong or was misconstrued.
Since the issue occurred I have traded personal geekmails with the moderator concerned and we have agreed that in view of the wider issue of the derailment of valid threads it was the right decision.

Hopefully that has explained things further.
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silverfox63 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:


Please, do elaborate.


I posted a comment in the thread which was pulled by the moderator in a very quick time.
Personally I felt that my post was unfairly removed. My post was not sexist racist or politically incorrect. My post was a juxtaposed argument however my use of a quote was probably not my best decision. However my post was in support of the OP but taken from the male perspective. Possibly the intended message came across wrong or was misconstrued.
Since the issue occurred I have traded personal geekmails with the moderator concerned and we have agreed that in view of the wider issue of the derailment of valid threads it was the right decision.

Hopefully that has explained things further.


OK, but think of it this way... if you walk into a room where a conversation is going on between a group of people that have had negative experiences with something you represent, regardless of your connection to those experiences, is it the wisest thing to immediately offer a counter argument against their experiences? The fact that you can't see the error in that approach indicates that you just aren't there yet.

It isn't that you are intentionally doing anything malicious, it just is that you don't realize that your actions aren't positive. So, instead of defending or arguing or whatever "good" you think you are doing/representing, perhaps just listen.

It is their truth, regardless of what your truth/belief is. And the fact is that your truth has been the only recognized/supported/defended/forced/societal supported truth for centuries. And your approach to this problem, along with hundreds of others of various levels of harm, have been wielded without any penalty against them since forever.

So, listen. Put yourself in their place. Try to move beyond yourself. Think of all the skills a diplomat must possess before entering a situation that isn't theirs to control, and then learn and grow.

and without any irony, I hope that doesn't come across as 'splaining to you. Because it isn't from arrogance or anything but the desire to enlighten, and if you were across from me, the tone would be obvious... much like the tone that accompanies 'splaining is obvious to those that are capable of deciphering those clues. And that is recognizing that not everyone is capable of reading the many details that we convey when communicating, which could be the issue with many 'splainers.

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Holy shit, I *LOVE* this new, proactive direction. BGG has needed a strong deterrent to "shitposting" for some time, as well as a way to prevent the usual derailment attack vectors from the usual miscreants ("Is there even mansplaining? Please elaborate and define fully")

I've taken long, LONG breaks from the forums here because of that sort of thing. And I've always sort of felt this barrier between myself and this site because of that behavior.

I'll see you guys during the membership drive this year.
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darthhugo wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:


Please, do elaborate.


I posted a comment in the thread which was pulled by the moderator in a very quick time.
Personally I felt that my post was unfairly removed. My post was not sexist racist or politically incorrect. My post was a juxtaposed argument however my use of a quote was probably not my best decision. However my post was in support of the OP but taken from the male perspective. Possibly the intended message came across wrong or was misconstrued.
Since the issue occurred I have traded personal geekmails with the moderator concerned and we have agreed that in view of the wider issue of the derailment of valid threads it was the right decision.

Hopefully that has explained things further.


OK, but think of it this way... if you walk into a room where a conversation is going on between a group of people that have had negative experiences with something you represent, regardless of your connection to those experiences, is it the wisest thing to immediately offer a counter argument against their experiences? The fact that you can't see the error in that approach indicates that you just aren't there yet.

It isn't that you are intentionally doing anything malicious, it just is that you don't realize that your actions aren't positive. So, instead of defending or arguing or whatever "good" you think you are doing/representing, perhaps just listen.

It is their truth, regardless of what your truth/belief is. And the fact is that your truth has been the only recognized/supported/defended/forced/societal supported truth for centuries. And your approach to this problem, along with hundreds of others of various levels of harm, have been wielded without any penalty against them since forever.

So, listen. Put yourself in their place. Try to move beyond yourself. Think of all the skills a diplomat must possess before entering a situation that isn't theirs to control, and then learn and grow.

and without any irony, I hope that doesn't come across as 'splaining to you. Because it isn't from arrogance or anything but the desire to enlighten, and if you were across from me, the tone would be obvious... much like the tone that accompanies 'splaining is obvious to those that are capable of deciphering those clues. And that is recognizing that not everyone is capable of reading the many details that we convey when communicating, which could be the issue with many 'splainers.



Unfortunately you cannot read my post and your comment, whilst balanced and well meaning could be taken as an example of splaining.
I do not take offence.
As I mentioned my thread was in full support of the OP. I merely countered a example of womensplaining.
Whilst it may not have been my finest hour.
I was "listening" and reading the thread, I didn't feel any error on my part. I accept the facts as their truths. I felt I was entitled to make a comment. Since mine was pulled, in my opinion there have been other posts I believe to be derogatory and inflammatory on the thread.
I am enlightened to understand the situation at 55 I feel I have seen enough examples of sexist behaviour in the world and workplace to make a balanced and lucid point.
I work in a diverse and inclusive office environment where all opinions and ideas are embraced.

I will leave it here. As I hope others will. I was not chastised or berated by the admins. I could have constructed my post better. I admonished myself for the lapse in communicating my point clearer.
I value your opinion as I hope you would mine.
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silverfox63 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:


Please, do elaborate.


I posted a comment in the thread which was pulled by the moderator in a very quick time.
Personally I felt that my post was unfairly removed. My post was not sexist racist or politically incorrect. My post was a juxtaposed argument however my use of a quote was probably not my best decision. However my post was in support of the OP but taken from the male perspective. Possibly the intended message came across wrong or was misconstrued.
Since the issue occurred I have traded personal geekmails with the moderator concerned and we have agreed that in view of the wider issue of the derailment of valid threads it was the right decision.

Hopefully that has explained things further.


OK, but think of it this way... if you walk into a room where a conversation is going on between a group of people that have had negative experiences with something you represent, regardless of your connection to those experiences, is it the wisest thing to immediately offer a counter argument against their experiences? The fact that you can't see the error in that approach indicates that you just aren't there yet.

It isn't that you are intentionally doing anything malicious, it just is that you don't realize that your actions aren't positive. So, instead of defending or arguing or whatever "good" you think you are doing/representing, perhaps just listen.

It is their truth, regardless of what your truth/belief is. And the fact is that your truth has been the only recognized/supported/defended/forced/societal supported truth for centuries. And your approach to this problem, along with hundreds of others of various levels of harm, have been wielded without any penalty against them since forever.

So, listen. Put yourself in their place. Try to move beyond yourself. Think of all the skills a diplomat must possess before entering a situation that isn't theirs to control, and then learn and grow.

and without any irony, I hope that doesn't come across as 'splaining to you. Because it isn't from arrogance or anything but the desire to enlighten, and if you were across from me, the tone would be obvious... much like the tone that accompanies 'splaining is obvious to those that are capable of deciphering those clues. And that is recognizing that not everyone is capable of reading the many details that we convey when communicating, which could be the issue with many 'splainers.



Unfortunately you cannot read my post and your comment, whilst balanced and well meaning could be taken as an example of splaining.
I do not take offence.
As I mentioned my thread was in full support of the OP. I merely countered a example of womensplaining.
Whilst it may not have been my finest hour.
I was "listening" and reading the thread, I didn't feel any error on my part. I accept the facts as their truths. I felt I was entitled to make a comment. Since mine was pulled, in my opinion there have been other posts I believe to be derogatory and inflammatory on the thread.
I am enlightened to understand the situation at 55 I feel I have seen enough examples of sexist behaviour in the world and workplace to make a balanced and lucid point.
I work in a diverse and inclusive office environment where all opinions and ideas are embraced.

I will leave it here. As I hope others will. I was not chastised or berated by the admins. I could have constructed my post better. I admonished myself for the lapse in communicating my point clearer.
I value your opinion as I hope you would mine.


Fair enough. I do value your opinion. And I was just providing you an alternate take to the way your scene played out, per your choices.

After looking at the dailies, I determined that the scene fell apart the moment you started to provide the counter-example of woman-splaining. This decision on your part is what I'm telling you isn't the best way to deal with that scene. But don't let me tell you, look for yourself.

There was really no goal or request or good outcome for your choice at that point. And that is the progression point that someone, even a few years older than me, may need to reconsider.

Now, I'm not telling you which way to play the scene, I'm just telling you that the material is always going to get cut and you aren't getting a call-back for the next movie as long as it keeps happening that way.

And I think the reason that there was an instantaneous "CUT!" to your acting choice is that the other actors have dealt with these situations for so long, so often, of various levels of uncivility - with the only goal is to keep them marginalized and ruin their scene, that at any point the mere whiff that this is happening again, its over.

And I completely understand and get this reaction and decision. If at this point in history, if this would have happened to men, the transgressors would have been long since eliminated... as in gone gone.


I hope you enjoyed my horrible metaphors. I do understand what you are saying, respect your POV, and in the end we all make our own choices, of which we need to exist with and accept. Good luck and thank you for a civil discussion.

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Hmm, I've never had any complaints about moderation on the site, hopefully it stays that way.

Just as long as moderation doesn't get as heavy-handed as it was on Television Without Pity.
I.e., you were not allowed to say anything about the website itself, else you were moderated. Not even to for example comment on trends of what people have been posting about for a particular show, etc. That was called "boards on boards" and your post was deleted and you were penalized.
 
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franklincobb wrote:
Holy shit, I *LOVE* this new, proactive direction. BGG has needed a strong deterrent to "shitposting" for some time, as well as a way to prevent the usual derailment attack vectors from the usual miscreants ("Is there even mansplaining? Please elaborate and define fully")

I've taken long, LONG breaks from the forums here because of that sort of thing. And I've always sort of felt this barrier between myself and this site because of that behavior.

I'll see you guys during the membership drive this year.

I on the other hand completely lost respect for this site and it's admins.
Essentially breaking their own rules by condoning sexist terms and deleting posts that were not breaking ANY site rules.
Zero chance of ever supporting them.
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japol wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
Holy shit, I *LOVE* this new, proactive direction. BGG has needed a strong deterrent to "shitposting" for some time, as well as a way to prevent the usual derailment attack vectors from the usual miscreants ("Is there even mansplaining? Please elaborate and define fully")

I've taken long, LONG breaks from the forums here because of that sort of thing. And I've always sort of felt this barrier between myself and this site because of that behavior.

I'll see you guys during the membership drive this year.

I on the other hand completely lost respect for this site and it's admins.
Essentially breaking their own rules by condoning sexist terms and deleting posts that were not breaking ANY site rules.
Zero chance of ever supporting them.




You want to show us where on the doll that the term “mansplaining” made you go “owee”?


EDIT: Also, your threat might have teeth if you had a row of supporter badges already. Going from “zero chance” to “zero chance” is fairly meaningless.
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franklincobb wrote:
japol wrote:
franklincobb wrote:
Holy shit, I *LOVE* this new, proactive direction. BGG has needed a strong deterrent to "shitposting" for some time, as well as a way to prevent the usual derailment attack vectors from the usual miscreants ("Is there even mansplaining? Please elaborate and define fully")

I've taken long, LONG breaks from the forums here because of that sort of thing. And I've always sort of felt this barrier between myself and this site because of that behavior.

I'll see you guys during the membership drive this year.

I on the other hand completely lost respect for this site and it's admins.
Essentially breaking their own rules by condoning sexist terms and deleting posts that were not breaking ANY site rules.
Zero chance of ever supporting them.




You want to show us where on the doll that the term “mansplaining” made you go “owee”?


EDIT: Also, your threat might have teeth if you had a row of supporter badges already. Going from “zero chance” to “zero chance” is fairly meaningless.

"Mansplaining" is by definition a sexist term.The context in which it is used is irrelevant,meaning i am not even examining what the original post stated.
If you want to say that someone was condenscending or rude or patronizing towards you,you would use those words.
The term "mansplaining" insinuates that only men are guilty of such behaviours and that women are the victims,which is not true.
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japol wrote:
The term "mansplaining" insinuates that only men are guilty of such behaviours and that women are the victims,which is not true.

If you don't grok that only men mansplain, it simply means that you are confused about the meaning of the word, and think that it means something more general.
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russ wrote:
japol wrote:
The term "mansplaining" insinuates that only men are guilty of such behaviours and that women are the victims,which is not true.

If you don't grok that only men mansplain, it simply means that you are confused about the meaning of the word, and think that it means something more general.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining

notice the words "of a man" specificaly ,not that you really need wikipedia to derive the meaning from the words but i'll play along.
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japol wrote:
russ wrote:
japol wrote:
The term "mansplaining" insinuates that only men are guilty of such behaviours and that women are the victims,which is not true.

If you don't grok that only men mansplain, it simply means that you are confused about the meaning of the word, and think that it means something more general.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansplaining

notice the words "of a man" specificaly and "sexist assumption",not that you really need wikipedia to derive the meaning from the words but i'll play along.

Mentioning men as part of a definition or explanation is not automatically sexist. Is it sexist to say that men have penises?

I suppose you're (erroneously) equating "mansplaining" with a more general phenomenon like "talking down to someone", "being pushy", etc. Which is missing the key point of the asymmetrical power imbalance which exists between men and women in society.

E.g. do you think it's discrimination against police officers to talk about "police brutality", because the more general phenomenon of physical assault happens by and to all kinds of people, and is not just done by police to non-police? That would be ignoring the power imbalance which exists between police and suspects, which adds an additional specific character and is hence why "police brutality" is something more specific than physical assault generally.

Similarly mansplaining is something more specific than general pushiness or talking down to someone.
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darthhugo wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
silverfox63 wrote:


Please, do elaborate.


I posted a comment in the thread which was pulled by the moderator in a very quick time.
Personally I felt that my post was unfairly removed. My post was not sexist racist or politically incorrect. My post was a juxtaposed argument however my use of a quote was probably not my best decision. However my post was in support of the OP but taken from the male perspective. Possibly the intended message came across wrong or was misconstrued.
Since the issue occurred I have traded personal geekmails with the moderator concerned and we have agreed that in view of the wider issue of the derailment of valid threads it was the right decision.

Hopefully that has explained things further.


OK, but think of it this way... if you walk into a room where a conversation is going on between a group of people that have had negative experiences with something you represent, regardless of your connection to those experiences, is it the wisest thing to immediately offer a counter argument against their experiences? The fact that you can't see the error in that approach indicates that you just aren't there yet.

It isn't that you are intentionally doing anything malicious, it just is that you don't realize that your actions aren't positive. So, instead of defending or arguing or whatever "good" you think you are doing/representing, perhaps just listen.

It is their truth, regardless of what your truth/belief is. And the fact is that your truth has been the only recognized/supported/defended/forced/societal supported truth for centuries. And your approach to this problem, along with hundreds of others of various levels of harm, have been wielded without any penalty against them since forever.

So, listen. Put yourself in their place. Try to move beyond yourself. Think of all the skills a diplomat must possess before entering a situation that isn't theirs to control, and then learn and grow.

and without any irony, I hope that doesn't come across as 'splaining to you. Because it isn't from arrogance or anything but the desire to enlighten, and if you were across from me, the tone would be obvious... much like the tone that accompanies 'splaining is obvious to those that are capable of deciphering those clues. And that is recognizing that not everyone is capable of reading the many details that we convey when communicating, which could be the issue with many 'splainers.



Unfortunately you cannot read my post and your comment, whilst balanced and well meaning could be taken as an example of splaining.
I do not take offence.
As I mentioned my thread was in full support of the OP. I merely countered a example of womensplaining.
Whilst it may not have been my finest hour.
I was "listening" and reading the thread, I didn't feel any error on my part. I accept the facts as their truths. I felt I was entitled to make a comment. Since mine was pulled, in my opinion there have been other posts I believe to be derogatory and inflammatory on the thread.
I am enlightened to understand the situation at 55 I feel I have seen enough examples of sexist behaviour in the world and workplace to make a balanced and lucid point.
I work in a diverse and inclusive office environment where all opinions and ideas are embraced.

I will leave it here. As I hope others will. I was not chastised or berated by the admins. I could have constructed my post better. I admonished myself for the lapse in communicating my point clearer.
I value your opinion as I hope you would mine.


Fair enough. I do value your opinion. And I was just providing you an alternate take to the way your scene played out, per your choices.

After looking at the dailies, I determined that the scene fell apart the moment you started to provide the counter-example of woman-splaining. This decision on your part is what I'm telling you isn't the best way to deal with that scene. But don't let me tell you, look for yourself.

There was really no goal or request or good outcome for your choice at that point. And that is the progression point that someone, even a few years older than me, may need to reconsider.

Now, I'm not telling you which way to play the scene, I'm just telling you that the material is always going to get cut and you aren't getting a call-back for the next movie as long as it keeps happening that way.

And I think the reason that there was an instantaneous "CUT!" to your acting choice is that the other actors have dealt with these situations for so long, so often, of various levels of uncivility - with the only goal is to keep them marginalized and ruin their scene, that at any point the mere whiff that this is happening again, its over.

And I completely understand and get this reaction and decision. If at this point in history, if this would have happened to men, the transgressors would have been long since eliminated... as in gone gone.


I hope you enjoyed my horrible metaphors. I do understand what you are saying, respect your POV, and in the end we all make our own choices, of which we need to exist with and accept. Good luck and thank you for a civil discussion.




Thank you.

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This thread has become the cousin of this thread: How do you deal with "mansplaining"? .

Actually I wanted to discuss the new policy of deleting posts by admins.
Maybe there is no new input about it, but I would like that the "mansplaining" issue would move back to the appropriate thread.

Thanks
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maho wrote:
This thread has become the cousin of this thread: How do you deal with "mansplaining"? .

Actually I wanted to discuss the new policy of deleting posts by admins.
Maybe there is no new input about it, but I would like that the "mansplaining" issue would move back to the appropriate thread.

Thanks


The thread above was in response to a request to elaborate my statement which I did. The discussion continued and an amicable outcome achieved.

The "mansplaining" thread continues unabated and people are still placing insensitive remarks on the thread. Which I do not condone and in my defence I did not do. Mr error was to construct my post incorrectly but in support of the OP.
My annoyance was originally raised due to the speed at which my post was removed. The above thread explains.
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japol wrote:
...
By definition mansplaining refers to a specific type of condescending behavior... in which a man cannot credit that the woman speaking understands something, precisely because she is a woman, and so instructs her on something she already knows. Any example you’re thinking of that doesn’t involve a man instructing a woman, or where the belief that the person can’t understand something is linked to their gender... is something else.

I’m sure there’s men who condescending explain things to other men, but not because they have trouble believing men can understand things. And there’s surely women who condescendingly explain things to men, and perhaps sometimes because they think men, as a gender, can’t understand things... but first off, that’s not mansplaining, and secondly it happens orders of magnitude less frequently than mansplaining.
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Rich Keiser
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maho wrote:
This thread has become the cousin of this thread: How do you deal with "mansplaining"? .

Actually I wanted to discuss the new policy of deleting posts by admins.
Maybe there is no new input about it, but I would like that the "mansplaining" issue would move back to the appropriate thread.

Thanks


Hmmmm, I don't think that would be the best solution, as it detracts from that thread - which is the point of discussing it here - a general discussion about moderation policies.

We could start another thread, but since the convo has run its course, there is no need for that.

So, choice between doing what is right for that thread vs what is right for this thread. This one isn't as sacred (no offense), so this is where the relevant comments go on the subject.

Life is full of choices where someone will always be disappointed with your decisions, and as much I would like to not disappoint you, I guess I'm going to.

Thanks.
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Dave, or "Phineas" or "Tolstoy" or,
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russ wrote:
Mentioning men as part of a definition or explanation is not automatically sexist. Is it sexist to say that men have penises?
Unfortunately, these days, in some segments of people, yes, it is sexist. Or if not sexist, wrong in some way that I cannot comprehend.
 
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I hear so much #NotAllMen here, but my suggestion is:
If you're not mansplaining, then please don't be offended by the word, because this song is not about you.
If someone tells you that you're mansplaining, take a step back and verify what you are trying to do (pass knowledge to someone) and if the way you're doing it is helpful (it may or it may not be).

And given the nature of the discussion here I think it is about time to move it to RSP (mostly for the P)
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Also not a fan of such heavy handed moderation. I like the "hidden" approach. Most of the time I'll pass on by, but occasionally I'll expand to try to understand context of an escalation or to decide for myself how I feel about what the person said.

In other forums I've seen where in extreme situations portions of a message have been striked-through or filtered (ie. badword becomes &*@$*) with mod comments indicating that aspect is unacceptable and possibly that the user was banned/suspended for repeated infractions of such rules.

Edit: Had meant to also throw something in about being able to see comments in someone's history being a helpful thing. Someone makes a post and via their history you know they're just trying to stir the pot rather than engage in real discussion. Check - hide/report and move on.
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entwife wrote:

I can't decide how I feel when I see threads that look like this:





My feeling is that nothing good is happening in that thread.
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