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Hammer of the Scots» Forums » Rules

Subject: Retreating: Does attacker or defender retreat first? rss

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Blue Jackal
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We went with defender, assuming both units go at the same phase (A, B or C.) Another alternative was whoever had highest initiative, but I don't think that makes as much sense.

My logic being, the only time an attacker cannot have moved into a space to cut off retreat before a battle, was when the defender was between the attacker and the space they desire to retreat to: and it doesn't make much sense to allow the attacker to retreat through the defender's force and arrive at the territory before the defender.

As my opponent, after I declared my retreat, wanted to retreat too so I couldn't steal a noble come winter, since he had entered via one border but couldn't have entered via the border I was retreating through.

Figured I'd post this here, regardless, and see what everyone thinks.
 
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Luca Iennaco
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Rules say: "Each block may retreat (instead of attacking) on its normal Combat Turn.", thus the order is the normal combat order: defending A, attacking A, def B, att B, def C, att C.
After the 3 rounds, if the battle isn't over yet, only the attacker must retreat.

Have fun!
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Niko Ruf
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Note the "(instead of attacking)" part in the rule Luca quoted. No special rules is required to determine when you retreat. Each block may retreat instead of making ist attack, at the instant it would make the attack. The only time when there is a collective retreat is after the third combat round, when the attacker must retreat all blocks if the defender has any units left.
 
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Flannel Golem
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Luca is correct: retreats are effected in the same battle-order attacks are (i.e. defender first)

However don't overlook the possibility of "forward retreats", that is retreats into empty areas that are not necessarily where you came from.
Example: an English force including Hobelars converges from Menteith and Atholl into Fife, containing a small Scottish force with the region of Angus empty behind them. If the defending Scots are unable to retreat someone into Angus in the A-phase of the first battle-round, the Hobelar could retreat there first ("through the defender's force" as you say), cutting off the Scots' retreat and forcing them to fight the battle (on the other hand, had a Scottish block just moved from Angus to Fife, the border would be considered Scot-controlled and the Hobelar could not have retreated that way).


It's important to realize that forces in this period didn't have complete control of the large regions represented on the map, so the Hobelar retreating through to Angus isn't necessarily riding through the enemy host, but more likely riding the long way round, out of sight of the enemy.
 
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Blue Jackal
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Oh, wow, we might have been playing wrong regarding combat.

I know it says "damage is inflicted instantly." Which I took to mean that the rules were just trying to say, yes, B blocks damage C blocks before the C blocks get to fire.

But if the defenders roll first, then that means B defending blocks damage the B attacking blocks first?

That would also explain how retreats work... That is, I know how retreats work, but I want to know which of two B blocks (attacker's or defender's) would retreat first... especially since one retreat could be declared in response to another's.

Since I know A blocks retreat before B blocks. And I know A blocks can retreat before B blocks (retreating forward, as you said)... I just thought that, all things being equal, it makes a bit more sense for a "B" defending block to be able to retreat before the "B" attacking block. I mean, I know games are abstract, but what other metric would we use to decide? Since the attacker can typically spread his forces out to encircle the enemy before hand... so it seems a bit cheap to be able to declare retreat with your B unit after the defender has declared retreat with THEIR B unit, and then the attacker gets there first. (What my opponent was trying to do.)

Ultimately, I'm now curious whether defending blocks at say, B, damage attacking blocks at B before the attacking blocks get to roll. And does that mean the defending block can retreat before the attacking blocks get to roll? Or does that just mean the defender declares first?
 
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Blue Jackal
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Luke the Flaming wrote:
Rules say: "Each block may retreat (instead of attacking) on its normal Combat Turn.", thus the order is the normal combat order: defending A, attacking A, def B, att B, def C, att C.
After the 3 rounds, if the battle isn't over yet, only the attacker must retreat.

Have fun!


Woops, here I put up a long post, and I just needed to read this a bit more clearly.

We played that B's roll simultaneously... I know in the rules it said that damage is NOT simultaneous, but I took that to be a clarification of "Yes, B's inflict damage before C's."
 
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Philip Thomas
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Yes, at each stage of firing damage occurs straight away. Defender A blocks fire and the damage is resolved, then Attacker A blocks fire and their damage is resolved etc etc. There is no 'simultaneous' fire by units on different sides in this game.

This is of course an advantage for the defender, though if his blocks are all 'C' it may not be very helpful.

 
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Blue Jackal
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Thanks guys. I went a re-read the combat rules to find that useful sentence at the very end... thanks.

I'm surprised we missed it, seeing as how myself, and two other friends read (or at least skimmed) the rules... and we've had multiple errors in play, such as thinking Wallace could teleport like the Scottish King for a game or two.
 
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