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Subject: Deleted Posts rss

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Pete
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Lemur wrote:
Except -- in the past, when someone posted something offensive; most (not me; but most others, I hear) would get an email saying, "you *will* be moderated, unless you remove this offensive content." That provided an element of restorative justice.

Now, it would appear, that opportunity is lost.

The benefit of the old system is that you could look at the moderated posts and thing, "ooh, that guy really had it coming." Now you're left to wonder if he had it coming or not if you didn't see it.

Of course, that's the whole point. In some cases what's said is so bad that maybe we don't want to see it at all. But with all the "evidence" deleted, when that person comes whining to the complaint forum, we won't know for sure if we need to make fun of him or not.

Pete (is not positional at all on the change, but sees some of the problems it might cause going forward)
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Lemur wrote:
Except -- in the past, when someone posted something offensive; most (not me; but most others, I hear) would get an email saying, "you *will* be moderated, unless you remove this offensive content." That provided an element of restorative justice.

Now, it would appear, that opportunity is lost.



That's not how I've experienced moderation here (and I HAVE been moderated!).

In the past, you got an email saying your post was being moderated for such-and-such reason and a punishment was meted out (in most cases, a warning or temporary suspension of posting privileges). You were encouraged to remove your post, but were not required to, and as far as I know doing so did not reduce/remove your suspension.

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Pete
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cbazler wrote:
Lemur wrote:
Except -- in the past, when someone posted something offensive; most (not me; but most others, I hear) would get an email saying, "you *will* be moderated, unless you remove this offensive content." That provided an element of restorative justice.

Now, it would appear, that opportunity is lost.



That's not how I've experienced moderation here (and I HAVE been moderated!).

In the past, you got an email saying your post was being moderated for such-and-such reason and a punishment was meted out (in most cases, a warning or temporary suspension of posting privileges). You were encouraged to remove your post, but were not required to, and as far as I know doing so did not reduce/remove your suspension.

I've had it both ways.

Pete (has been moderated exactly twice)
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cbazler wrote:
Let me say I am a fan of the new policy of deleting posts, which is consistent with most moderation in other online forums. Why allow a disruptive, offensive, or mean-spirited post remain, still visible to anyone who wants to read it (even if collapsed), and still collecting thumbs, which only serve to reward and reinforce such behavior?

From my perspective, it's really jarring and upsetting to be minding your own business, casually reading about a game, only to suddenly have to read some bigoted or offensive piece of garbage, even in a collapsed or quoted post. It can really ruin my morning/afternoon. Having such content removed helps make everyone else's experience better here.

There is another bright side to this: if someone's posts get deleted, hopefully they will learn quickly what kinds of behavior are tolerated here, and will adapt. No thumbs or encouragement for them. The upshot is that after moderation, if they're able to control themselves, they will be able to participate civilly in conversations without other users having plonked them (since their posts were removed). It's a win-win: we don't have to read their garbage and they won't become community pariahs for the disruptive things they say.


Why would someone who would potentially be upset by offensive content keep reading collapsed posts?

I think it's a reasonable expectation to assume those folks would not do that to themselves.
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Shampoo4you wrote:
cbazler wrote:
Let me say I am a fan of the new policy of deleting posts, which is consistent with most moderation in other online forums. Why allow a disruptive, offensive, or mean-spirited post remain, still visible to anyone who wants to read it (even if collapsed), and still collecting thumbs, which only serve to reward and reinforce such behavior?

From my perspective, it's really jarring and upsetting to be minding your own business, casually reading about a game, only to suddenly have to read some bigoted or offensive piece of garbage, even in a collapsed or quoted post. It can really ruin my morning/afternoon. Having such content removed helps make everyone else's experience better here.

There is another bright side to this: if someone's posts get deleted, hopefully they will learn quickly what kinds of behavior are tolerated here, and will adapt. No thumbs or encouragement for them. The upshot is that after moderation, if they're able to control themselves, they will be able to participate civilly in conversations without other users having plonked them (since their posts were removed). It's a win-win: we don't have to read their garbage and they won't become community pariahs for the disruptive things they say.


Why would someone who would potentially be upset by offensive content keep reading collapsed posts?

I think it's a reasonable expectation to assume those folks would not do that to themselves.


Well, for one there's quoted posts.

But let's be honest, curiosity often gets the best of us. When I used to have a large plonk list (after the big RSP purge I've since deleted most of it), I would sometimes peek. If I saw several people in a thread reacting strongly to a collapsed post (even if they refrained from quoting it), I'd often uncollapse it to see what the big fuss was about.

OTOH, if the post was flagrantly bad enough, I would always ask myself why the site mods would allow such things to remain there. Certain things like explicit pornography and neo-Nazi sentiments have always been removed. Why shouldn't bigotry and other forms of hate speech?

If someone came into the Rainbow BGG forum to tell LGBT users to shut up about their sexuality, or to stop rubbing "politics" in their faces, I'd expect that person's posts to be removed. If a man goes into the Women's forum to explain to a bunch of women that they don't experience sexism or that their opinions don't matter, I expect that person's posts to be removed. Now, fortunately, it seems they will be.

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cbazler wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
cbazler wrote:
Let me say I am a fan of the new policy of deleting posts, which is consistent with most moderation in other online forums. Why allow a disruptive, offensive, or mean-spirited post remain, still visible to anyone who wants to read it (even if collapsed), and still collecting thumbs, which only serve to reward and reinforce such behavior?

From my perspective, it's really jarring and upsetting to be minding your own business, casually reading about a game, only to suddenly have to read some bigoted or offensive piece of garbage, even in a collapsed or quoted post. It can really ruin my morning/afternoon. Having such content removed helps make everyone else's experience better here.

There is another bright side to this: if someone's posts get deleted, hopefully they will learn quickly what kinds of behavior are tolerated here, and will adapt. No thumbs or encouragement for them. The upshot is that after moderation, if they're able to control themselves, they will be able to participate civilly in conversations without other users having plonked them (since their posts were removed). It's a win-win: we don't have to read their garbage and they won't become community pariahs for the disruptive things they say.


Why would someone who would potentially be upset by offensive content keep reading collapsed posts?

I think it's a reasonable expectation to assume those folks would not do that to themselves.


Well, for one there's quoted posts.

But let's be honest, curiosity often gets the best of us. When I used to have a large plonk list (after the big RSP purge I've since deleted most of it), I would sometimes peek. If I saw several people in a thread reacting strongly to a collapsed post (even if they refrained from quoting it), I'd often uncollapse it to see what the big fuss was about.

OTOH, if the post was flagrantly bad enough, I would always ask myself why the site mods would allow such things to remain there. Certain things like explicit pornography and neo-Nazi sentiments have always been removed. Why shouldn't bigotry and other forms of hate speech?

If someone came into the Rainbow BGG forum to tell LGBT users to shut up about their sexuality, or to stop rubbing "politics" in their faces, I'd expect that person's posts to be removed. If a man goes into the Women's forum to explain to a bunch of woman that they don't experience sexism or that their opinions don't matter, I expect that person's posts to be removed. Now, fortunately, it seems they will be.



Quoting collapsed posts could be hidden like a spoiler tag.

I do think bigoted posts should be removed outright from LGBT and Women and Gaming forums, but I think overall, transparency is better. There is a lot of skepticism over how things are moderated even when we CAN see what post got the user a disciplinary action. I can only imagine how it will be now that we can't.
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Man I sure am glad I don't have to do the job Matt does...

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Shampoo4you wrote:
There is a lot of skepticism over how things are moderated even when we CAN see what post got the user a disciplinary action.

We have never before been able to see what posts resulted in disciplinary action. We could only see what posts had been flagged by at least a handful of users. So this has not changed.
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grant5 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
There is a lot of skepticism over how things are moderated even when we CAN see what post got the user a disciplinary action.

We have never before been able to see what posts resulted in disciplinary action. We could only see what posts had been flagged by at least a handful of users. So this has not changed.


95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action. It doesn't take an imagination to figure out which ones are which. You just have to differentiate the posts that are obvious trolling or personal attacks (the 95%) from the potentially controversial (but not bigoted or political) statements (the other 5%).
 
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Shampoo4you wrote:
grant5 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
There is a lot of skepticism over how things are moderated even when we CAN see what post got the user a disciplinary action.

We have never before been able to see what posts resulted in disciplinary action. We could only see what posts had been flagged by at least a handful of users. So this has not changed.


95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.

That doesn't sound even remotely true. You have anything to back that up?
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grant5 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
grant5 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
There is a lot of skepticism over how things are moderated even when we CAN see what post got the user a disciplinary action.

We have never before been able to see what posts resulted in disciplinary action. We could only see what posts had been flagged by at least a handful of users. So this has not changed.


95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.

That doesn't sound even remotely true. You have anything to back that up?


When it's collapsed, mods are notified. At least 95% of collapsed posts violate forum rules in some way. Since moderation handled privately, it is impossible to provide proof, but I'd place a large wager on it.
 
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We are still ironing out the wrinkles of how we want to incorporate this new moderation tool in the overall moderation policy.

As has already been noted, removing disruptive posts results in fewer instances of those posts rekindling derailments when it provokes a new response from someone reading the thread for the first time.

In addition to that, we are also seeking to cut down on the overall number of short posting suspensions in favor of giving out more private warnings instead. Suspending posting privileges will be reserved for severe single incidents, repeating the offense within the thread where the warning was received, or frequent individual offenses across many different threads.
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Shampoo4you wrote:

95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.


I haven't run the numbers (I don't think they can be run, actually) so I don't know how accurate it is. My guesstimate is that it is too high a percentage.

Regardless of the actual percentage, not only are there many collapsed posts that don't get moderated, but there are many more un-collapsed posts that do. So grant5's point holds that the content of the posts that receive disciplinary action has never been 100% publicly knowable.
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Octavian wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.


I haven't run the numbers (I don't think they can be run, actually) so I don't know how accurate it is. My guesstimate is that it is too high a percentage.



And my guesstimate is that you're wrong!

Don't ban me pls.

But seriously, I almost never come across a collapsed post that didn't violate a rule. But I don't see every thread.
 
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Shampoo4you wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.


I haven't run the numbers (I don't think they can be run, actually) so I don't know how accurate it is. My guesstimate is that it is too high a percentage.



And my guesstimate is that you're wrong!

Don't ban me pls.

But seriously, I almost never come across a collapsed post that didn't violate a rule. But I don't see every thread.

I think it's pretty funny that you're continuing to argue this point, even with Octavian, and even knowing that you're just making up numbers and going off your own gut feel. Is having to concede a single point that unfathomable to you?
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Shampoo4you wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.


I haven't run the numbers (I don't think they can be run, actually) so I don't know how accurate it is. My guesstimate is that it is too high a percentage.



And my guesstimate is that you're wrong!

Don't ban me pls.

But seriously, I almost never come across a collapsed post that didn't violate a rule. But I don't see every thread.


Minority opinions in a few forums and game forums get collapsed very quickly by the majority.
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grant5 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.


I haven't run the numbers (I don't think they can be run, actually) so I don't know how accurate it is. My guesstimate is that it is too high a percentage.



And my guesstimate is that you're wrong!

Don't ban me pls.

But seriously, I almost never come across a collapsed post that didn't violate a rule. But I don't see every thread.

I think it's pretty funny that you're continuing to argue this point, even with Octavian, and even knowing that you're just making up numbers and going off your own gut feel. Is having to concede a single point that unfathomable to you?


Octavian said himself that it was a "guesstimate" and that there's no way to tabulate it. So, what's to concede, exactly?

That I might possibly be wrong? Sure. But so could Octavian. Is his experience in this arena more credible than mine? Of course. But that doesn't make a "guesstimate" a certainty.

Is it unfathomable to you that YOU could be wrong? I get the feeling that it is.
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Shampoo4you wrote:
grant5 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.


I haven't run the numbers (I don't think they can be run, actually) so I don't know how accurate it is. My guesstimate is that it is too high a percentage.



And my guesstimate is that you're wrong!

Don't ban me pls.

But seriously, I almost never come across a collapsed post that didn't violate a rule. But I don't see every thread.

I think it's pretty funny that you're continuing to argue this point, even with Octavian, and even knowing that you're just making up numbers and going off your own gut feel. Is having to concede a single point that unfathomable to you?


Octavian said himself that it was a "guesstimate" and that there's no way to tabulate it. So, what's to concede, exactly?

That I might possibly be wrong? Sure. But so could Octavian. Is his experience in this arena more credible than mine? Of course. But that doesn't make a "guesstimate" a certainty.

Is it unfathomable to you that YOU could be wrong? I get the feeling that it is.

And..... DOUBLE DOWN!
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$5 on Octavian.

Pete (likes the sure thing)
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Whose guess is more correct is secondary to the larger point that collapsed posts are only a fraction of total moderated posts. So using collapsed posts as a metric of what is allowed is not only not a complete picture, but in some instances could be a misleading one.

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grant5 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
grant5 wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.


I haven't run the numbers (I don't think they can be run, actually) so I don't know how accurate it is. My guesstimate is that it is too high a percentage.



And my guesstimate is that you're wrong!

Don't ban me pls.

But seriously, I almost never come across a collapsed post that didn't violate a rule. But I don't see every thread.

I think it's pretty funny that you're continuing to argue this point, even with Octavian, and even knowing that you're just making up numbers and going off your own gut feel. Is having to concede a single point that unfathomable to you?


Octavian said himself that it was a "guesstimate" and that there's no way to tabulate it. So, what's to concede, exactly?

That I might possibly be wrong? Sure. But so could Octavian. Is his experience in this arena more credible than mine? Of course. But that doesn't make a "guesstimate" a certainty.

Is it unfathomable to you that YOU could be wrong? I get the feeling that it is.

And..... DOUBLE DOWN!


Thanks, I'm feeling more confident about this statement:

Quote:
Is it unfathomable to you that YOU could be wrong? I get the feeling that it is.

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I'm pretty sure that both times I was moderated the posts were not collapsed.

Pete (can't be sure because he deleted them)
 
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Shampoo4you wrote:
Is it unfathomable to you that YOU could be wrong? I get the feeling that it is.


I mean, is there absolutely any reason I should feel like I am in this situation?

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Nope.


But that is an expertly executed "I know you are but what I am I?"

Spoiler (click to reveal)
You're wrong.


whistle
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briezee wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.


I haven't run the numbers (I don't think they can be run, actually) so I don't know how accurate it is. My guesstimate is that it is too high a percentage.



And my guesstimate is that you're wrong!

Don't ban me pls.

But seriously, I almost never come across a collapsed post that didn't violate a rule. But I don't see every thread.


Minority opinions in a few forums and game forums get collapsed very quickly by the majority.


Yea, go say anything negative about KDM or Gloomhaven and see how fast your post gets collapsed.
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Perrin2017 wrote:
briezee wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

95% of collapsed posts get disciplinary action.


I haven't run the numbers (I don't think they can be run, actually) so I don't know how accurate it is. My guesstimate is that it is too high a percentage.



And my guesstimate is that you're wrong!

Don't ban me pls.

But seriously, I almost never come across a collapsed post that didn't violate a rule. But I don't see every thread.


Minority opinions in a few forums and game forums get collapsed very quickly by the majority.


Yea, go say anything negative about KDM or Gloomhaven and see how fast your post gets collapsed.


I was trying to not call out certain folk.
 
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