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Subject: Why would anyone attack the Lizards? rss

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RJ
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Drewkas wrote:
what I think the Lizards really need to do, is to negotiate with the other factions, e.g., wipe out some roosts or bases in exchange for some Acolytes.


This is a mindset that is worth adopting. Root in all its fanciful appearance has the underpinnings of a faction war, unholy alliances included. Perhaps the Lizards and Otters can do this best, given their reach.

I do like your 'set-collection' variant upon the variant though. I will consider trying it next time the Lizards come out in our games.
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Adam W.
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I have 20+ games of Root under my belt at this point, several of those playing Lizards. I've won a couple with them, and been competitive in most. Lizards are tough to play, and can be slightly unintuitive. However, I promise that they are plenty viable with rules as written. If acolytes were any easier to come by, Lizards would be dominant in play.

Here's some tips:
cards, cards, cards. The more of these you can start Daylight with, the better. Buddy up to the vagabond, buy cards from the Riverfolk. Get those warriors and gardens out in force.

Got a Riverfolk player? Buy their mercenaries, and use them to gain rulership of clearings and get those gardens built.

Don't treat your gardens like they're precious. I see lizards is over dominating clearings with warriors before they'll hit a garden down. Get a warrior or two in the clearing, enough to rule it, and get those gardens out.

Remember that people under estimate lizards, and will tend to provide other factions as targets. Capitalize on this, your gardens don't need as many defenders as you probably think.

Score. Many lizard newbies will go an entire game never scoring a card, or only scoring a couple. You need to do this Ritual, but there's a lot of nuance as to choosing what card to score, when.

Craft, craft, craft. Remember when we were getting all those gardens out? Well, it's not just for scoring. Lizards are masters of Favor and Royal Claim. Remember that you can craft a card in everything that you revealed in Daylight.

Influence the outcast. Use scoring and discards to try to control what goes outcast. This is important for conspiracies, but is even more important for crafting.

There's more, but this is all I have time to write for now. Try them out, and please share your thoughts.
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Trey Chambers
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LordStrafe wrote:
I have 20+ games of Root under my belt at this point, several of those playing Lizards. I've won a couple with them, and been competitive in most. Lizards are tough to play, and can be slightly unintuitive. However, I promise that they are plenty viable with rules as written. If acolytes were any easier to come by, Lizards would be dominant in play.

Here's some tips:
cards, cards, cards. The more of these you can start Daylight with, the better. Buddy up to the vagabond, buy cards from the Riverfolk. Get those warriors and gardens out in force.

Got a Riverfolk player? Buy their mercenaries, and use them to gain rulership of clearings and get those gardens built.

Don't treat your gardens like they're precious. I see lizards is over dominating clearings with warriors before they'll hit a garden down. Get a warrior or two in the clearing, enough to rule it, and get those gardens out.

Remember that people under estimate lizards, and will tend to provide other factions as targets. Capitalize on this, your gardens don't need as many defenders as you probably think.

Score. Many lizard newbies will go an entire game never scoring a card, or only scoring a couple. You need to do this Ritual, but there's a lot of nuance as to choosing what card to score, when.

Craft, craft, craft. Remember when we were getting all those gardens out? Well, it's not just for scoring. Lizards are masters of Favor and Royal Claim. Remember that you can craft a card in everything that you revealed in Daylight.

Influence the outcast. Use scoring and discards to try to control what goes outcast. This is important for conspiracies, but is even more important for crafting.

There's more, but this is all I have time to write for now. Try them out, and please share your thoughts.


I did basically all of this and still ended up solidly in last. And any time I didn't protect a Garden with like 5 warriors it got attacked so it was hard to keep more than a few on the board. Which made scoring tough, as you can imagine.
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Adam W.
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How many players? It's hard to imagine anyone getting that far ahead of they're spending that much attention on the Lizards.
 
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Andrew B
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LordStrafe wrote:
I have 20+ games of Root under my belt at this point, several of those playing Lizards. I've won a couple with them, and been competitive in most. Lizards are tough to play, and can be slightly unintuitive. However, I promise that they are plenty viable with rules as written. If acolytes were any easier to come by, Lizards would be dominant in play.


I agree with most of your points, but I’ve had a different experience on some. I agree that making it easier for Lizards to obtain acolytes may upset a delicate balance, in particular with the Eyrie. A lizard player with lots of acolytes can easily destroy the Eyrie.

Here are some places where my experience differs from yours:

LordStrafe wrote:
Remember that people under estimate lizards, and will tend to provide other factions as targets. Capitalize on this, your gardens don't need as many defenders as you probably think.


I find the opposite is true. People overestimate the lizards, and understandably so. If they have the right cards, are lucky with the outcast suit, and someone feeds them acolytes, then the Lizards can do serious damage. Not to mention, their board presence is intimidating. They’re like a tornado. The chance that they hit you is small but you’ve got to take every precaution. Unfortunately for the Lizards, the right precautions will have them all but completely neutralized.

LordStrafe wrote:
Craft, craft, craft. Remember when we were getting all those gardens out? Well, it's not just for scoring. Lizards are masters of Favor and Royal Claim. Remember that you can craft a card in everything that you revealed in Daylight.


The Lizards have a tremendously difficult time crafting since they can only craft in the outcast suit.

LordStrafe wrote:
There's more, but this is all I have time to write for now. Try them out, and please share your thoughts.


As I said in an earlier post, I think the real key for the lizards is negotiating with other players. If they can’t do this, then they are the easiest faction to snuff out. Sure. Any faction can be neutralized if players cooperate towards such a goal, but that requires a sacrifice of progress. The Lizards are the unique faction that is neutralized when they are ignored, no sacrifice required.

I suppose any faction that can make powerful moves (like the Lizard Cult) doesn’t NEED adjustment, only a solid appreciation of its capabilities by other players. My concern is that, regarding the Lizards, instilling that appreciation requires an understanding that far surpasses what is required for other factions. Maybe that’s a good thing, something to toy with for advanced players, but I wish that were at least hinted at up front.
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Jonas Egel
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LordStrafe wrote:
I have 20+ games of Root under my belt at this point, several of those playing Lizards. I've won a couple with them, and been competitive in most. Lizards are tough to play, and can be slightly unintuitive. However, I promise that they are plenty viable with rules as written. If acolytes were any easier to come by, Lizards would be dominant in play.

Here's some tips:
cards, cards, cards. The more of these you can start Daylight with, the better. Buddy up to the vagabond, buy cards from the Riverfolk. Get those warriors and gardens out in force.

Got a Riverfolk player? Buy their mercenaries, and use them to gain rulership of clearings and get those gardens built.

Don't treat your gardens like they're precious. I see lizards is over dominating clearings with warriors before they'll hit a garden down. Get a warrior or two in the clearing, enough to rule it, and get those gardens out.

Remember that people under estimate lizards, and will tend to provide other factions as targets. Capitalize on this, your gardens don't need as many defenders as you probably think.

Score. Many lizard newbies will go an entire game never scoring a card, or only scoring a couple. You need to do this Ritual, but there's a lot of nuance as to choosing what card to score, when.

Craft, craft, craft. Remember when we were getting all those gardens out? Well, it's not just for scoring. Lizards are masters of Favor and Royal Claim. Remember that you can craft a card in everything that you revealed in Daylight.

Influence the outcast. Use scoring and discards to try to control what goes outcast. This is important for conspiracies, but is even more important for crafting.

There's more, but this is all I have time to write for now. Try them out, and please share your thoughts.


The only games when i won with lizards where when i played with total noobs who dont understand how the lizards works. Any other players will give you a hard time ignoring your warriors, preventing hated nations and blowing up your well-deffended gardens with revolts every once in a while. It seems like you can do anything about it, you have very few options and are very much luckdependend (drawing birdcards or not, having the right outcast nation...). I totally like the conzept and mechanics of the lizards so i hate to say it but i think they really suck! cry
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Ted Govostis
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yonek wrote:
LordStrafe wrote:
I have 20+ games of Root under my belt at this point, several of those playing Lizards. I've won a couple with them, and been competitive in most. Lizards are tough to play, and can be slightly unintuitive. However, I promise that they are plenty viable with rules as written. If acolytes were any easier to come by, Lizards would be dominant in play.

Here's some tips:
cards, cards, cards. The more of these you can start Daylight with, the better. Buddy up to the vagabond, buy cards from the Riverfolk. Get those warriors and gardens out in force.

Got a Riverfolk player? Buy their mercenaries, and use them to gain rulership of clearings and get those gardens built.

Don't treat your gardens like they're precious. I see lizards is over dominating clearings with warriors before they'll hit a garden down. Get a warrior or two in the clearing, enough to rule it, and get those gardens out.

Remember that people under estimate lizards, and will tend to provide other factions as targets. Capitalize on this, your gardens don't need as many defenders as you probably think.

Score. Many lizard newbies will go an entire game never scoring a card, or only scoring a couple. You need to do this Ritual, but there's a lot of nuance as to choosing what card to score, when.

Craft, craft, craft. Remember when we were getting all those gardens out? Well, it's not just for scoring. Lizards are masters of Favor and Royal Claim. Remember that you can craft a card in everything that you revealed in Daylight.

Influence the outcast. Use scoring and discards to try to control what goes outcast. This is important for conspiracies, but is even more important for crafting.

There's more, but this is all I have time to write for now. Try them out, and please share your thoughts.


The only games when i won with lizards where when i played with total noobs who dont understand how the lizards works. Any other players will give you a hard time ignoring your warriors, preventing hated nations and blowing up your well-deffended gardens with revolts every once in a while. It seems like you can do anything about it, you have very few options and are very much luckdependend (drawing birdcards or not, having the right outcast nation...). I totally like the conzept and mechanics of the lizards so i hate to say it but i think they really suck! cry


Did you try them with the new rules changes? Sacrifice no longer requires taking the acolyte from the board, but instead from your supply, and all 3 suits give you a bonus draw at the 2nd garden. Also, if the outcast suit doesn't change, it becomes hated if it isn't already.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/30433730#30433730
 
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Bartosz Szafarz
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To answer the OP question, in my games it worked like that:
if you don't attack me I'll just happily build my 5 gardens (I start in the rabbit corner and having one unit in two connected mouse clearings it's easy to get dominance with a few recruits and start building there) and begin racking up points at an alarming rate. The opponents are forced to attack me to stop this and they kill the guards in the process thus granting me acolytes. The mouse cards I discarded for points often helped me keep the mice as outcast, perhaps even hated, and I was often able to use conspiracies to help me rebuild my dominance in the mouse clearings again.

Granted quite a bit depends on the cards I've been dealt. If I get a lot of mouse cards I am truly a force to be reckoned with. The bird cards are surprisingly not that good for this strategy. A Vagabond that clears the ruins for me giving me another mouse building slot is a good friend.

Crafting the cards that allow you to draw more cards (there's at least two with mouse crafting cost) is also veeery beneficial. People tend to underestimate permanent effect crafting. The one that lets you do battle is also very nice (free acolytes! can battle without conspiracies).

All of this can be countered of course, but the more the opponents focus on countering me, the less they focus on getting their own point engines going. And soon they start fighting between themselves especially with the birds forced to attack everyone by their own decree.

Overall the lizards truly feel like a metastatic cancer that spreads throughout the forest. You cut them out they grow back again.

(played with official revised rules - they do help a bit)
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Trey Chambers
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I am sure the revised rules make my OP largely moot.

I'm glad they acknowledged the imbalance.
 
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Jonas Egel
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Thra11 wrote:
yonek wrote:
LordStrafe wrote:
I have 20+ games of Root under my belt at this point, several of those playing Lizards. I've won a couple with them, and been competitive in most. Lizards are tough to play, and can be slightly unintuitive. However, I promise that they are plenty viable with rules as written. If acolytes were any easier to come by, Lizards would be dominant in play.

Here's some tips:
cards, cards, cards. The more of these you can start Daylight with, the better. Buddy up to the vagabond, buy cards from the Riverfolk. Get those warriors and gardens out in force.

Got a Riverfolk player? Buy their mercenaries, and use them to gain rulership of clearings and get those gardens built.

Don't treat your gardens like they're precious. I see lizards is over dominating clearings with warriors before they'll hit a garden down. Get a warrior or two in the clearing, enough to rule it, and get those gardens out.

Remember that people under estimate lizards, and will tend to provide other factions as targets. Capitalize on this, your gardens don't need as many defenders as you probably think.

Score. Many lizard newbies will go an entire game never scoring a card, or only scoring a couple. You need to do this Ritual, but there's a lot of nuance as to choosing what card to score, when.

Craft, craft, craft. Remember when we were getting all those gardens out? Well, it's not just for scoring. Lizards are masters of Favor and Royal Claim. Remember that you can craft a card in everything that you revealed in Daylight.

Influence the outcast. Use scoring and discards to try to control what goes outcast. This is important for conspiracies, but is even more important for crafting.

There's more, but this is all I have time to write for now. Try them out, and please share your thoughts.


The only games when i won with lizards where when i played with total noobs who dont understand how the lizards works. Any other players will give you a hard time ignoring your warriors, preventing hated nations and blowing up your well-deffended gardens with revolts every once in a while. It seems like you can do anything about it, you have very few options and are very much luckdependend (drawing birdcards or not, having the right outcast nation...). I totally like the conzept and mechanics of the lizards so i hate to say it but i think they really suck! cry


Did you try them with the new rules changes? Sacrifice no longer requires taking the acolyte from the board, but instead from your supply, and all 3 suits give you a bonus draw at the 2nd garden. Also, if the outcast suit doesn't change, it becomes hated if it isn't already.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/30433730#30433730


Yep. Yesterday i dit try them with the new rule changes. I drew no single bird card the whole game. No one attacked me the whole game, so i never had a single acolyte and therefor i could not make one single attack with my warriors. I had Zero Points at the end of the game, due to 2 early revolts that where performed early against me and completely knocked me out.
That was the saddest Root-Game of my life. Felt like never had even a little chance to do anything.
True story, not joking!shake
Tommorow we play Root again with 4 players. Ill continue giving Lizards a try, but that really did suck.
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Trey Chambers
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Yeah I think I only drew one bird when I played the Lizards. Overall I feel that Root is overly luck dependent because of the draw factor. I still enjoy the game, but it's definitely a problem.
 
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Bartosz Szafarz
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Like I said in my strategy I didn't need bird cards, I actually discarded them from my hand and only used two the whole game. They are overrated It is the gardens that scare the others into attacking me. And in order to destroy the gardens they have to kill my warriors.

I am actually looking forward to more plays in which others start to give me a harder time. A lot depends on players in this game I feel. Perhaps the problem is that each time we had at least one new player.

None of my games had WA so there's also that.
 
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CaveMaster wrote:
Like I said in my strategy I didn't need bird cards, I actually discarded them from my hand and only used two the whole game. They are overrated It is the gardens that scare the others into attacking me. And in order to destroy the gardens they have to kill my warriors.


I wasn't referring to you specifically, I meant in general.
 
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Bartosz Szafarz
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Yeah, after thinking about Yonek's posts I can see how it can be really difficult to come back after being hit hard in the beginning so that you don't establish board presence before the building slots are taken. The Vagabond really makes things much easier in this regard freeing additional slots I think.

You really need to go for multiple-slot clearings and recruit there hard ASAP. Apart from cats most other races (including WA) can't fill all of the slots in such clearings. Also, try to plan ahead to craft that card that lets you do a free battle action as well as anything that lets you have more cards.

If you lost board presence and slots are filled then your only hope is that the other players start destroying each other's buildings. Which should happen, unless all they care about is preventing Lizards from winning instead of making sure they themselves win. However if you invest in the wrong clearings (too far from combat, too strong enemy presence) you're dead, since you can't move around freely. You have to recognise the hopeless ones fast and start recruiting somewhere else.
 
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Andre Oliveira
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Cats - to avoid them cutting supply lines and make rooms for buildings
Birds - to avoid turmoil and make room for nests
WA - no reason (they are seldom attackers)
Vagabond - for lots of vp
Riverfolk - to grab garden vp

Main reason is their garden and juice vp - aecond reason is to drop their garden count or make room fot building.
 
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Mark Arking
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I've played the lizards 4 times now. 3 with current rules and once with updated tournament rules. Out of those 4 plays, I've had two exciting wins that essentially came down to a combat dice roll. One pathetic loss and one mediocre loss. While I'd like to blame the pathetic loss on cards, as I had no bird cards, I definitely made some major mistakes with outcast and crafting. Also, the WA wiped my starting position super early in the game...revolt does not send my Warriors to become Accolytes.
 
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Hagen Behr
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Could it be a solution to give the lizard 7 hand cards instead of 5?
 
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Remy M.
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Same issue with lizard last night. 6 players games, nobody attacked me, poor draw luck (few bird, no matching suit at the right time) thus it was very difficult to build garden before Cats and Eyrie. Without any acolyte I was not able to destroy buildings to free slots for my gardens, moreover WA destroyed my gardens and warriors by revolting that reduced my draw capacity.... What a boring game...

Is it too powerful to homerule that all warriors removed during turn of other players become acolytes ?
 
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