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Subject: Experimental - Corruption WereWolf - Day 3, Wolf Cub, 1 Enlightener Down rss

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Rhanddom wrote:
I'm not thrilled about the premature end, because it seems like evil could have corrupted at least one more of us as a courtesy? But that's all right.

Not unless one of you was at a 4
 
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So does that mean Korte was our (original) sorcerer?
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Kevin
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ortho_ wrote:
Yeah, we were going to have Tough Wolf call for the newly corrupted person to NF on Syntax.

I think Ludes made the right call ending the game.



Good game, everyone. It seems like good had some bad luck/evil had some good luck with the Corrupts/Enlightens.
at least I got something right
 
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xandryyte wrote:
Samool wrote:
Awoooo
ditto

Were you in fact evil?
 
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Terri K
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I was not prepared nor expecting the game to end so quickly...

I do want to apologize to backpacker for my blowup. And apologies to all the players too for what happened after. I deeply regret how I said what I said pretty much immediately.

I am sorry.
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RoyalApe wrote:
ortho_ wrote:
Yeah, we were going to have Tough Wolf call for the newly corrupted person to NF on Syntax.

I think Ludes made the right call ending the game.



Good game, everyone. It seems like good had some bad luck/evil had some good luck with the Corrupts/Enlightens.
at least I got something right

Hahaha, yeah. When I turned evil, my first thought was that I was just basically a useless unaware aux. Since I read you as good, I thought my best use would be to goad you into a big fight that would suck up most of the attention of the day.

Then, I slept on it and realized that I actually probably had more value as a potential deep wolf, so I changed tactics mid-day.

But at the time when you NFd me, I was acting super evil. It was a good call on your part.
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xandryyte wrote:
I was not prepared nor expecting the game to end so quickly...

I do want to apologize to backpacker for my blowup. And apologies to all the players too for what happened after. I deeply regret how I said what I said pretty much immediately.

I am sorry.

I accept it. But I will have hard time with mid game sympathy again.

I think backpacker’s comments were very fair.

I think that concludes my commentary on the matter.
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RoyalApe wrote:
xandryyte wrote:
I was not prepared nor expecting the game to end so quickly...

I do want to apologize to backpacker for my blowup. And apologies to all the players too for what happened after. I deeply regret how I said what I said pretty much immediately.

I am sorry.

I accept it. But I will have hard time with mid game sympathy again.

I think backpacker’s comments were very fair.

I think that concludes my commentary on the matter.

I will, without a doubt, never come back.

Goodbye.
 
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xandryyte wrote:
I was not prepared nor expecting the game to end so quickly...

I do want to apologize to backpacker for my blowup. And apologies to all the players too for what happened after. I deeply regret how I said what I said pretty much immediately.

I am sorry.
That's thoughtful of you, xand. But I still stand by the legitimacy of your initial protest (though replacing out is perhaps a bit strong, but I get that there's context, so even that seems legit enough) and especially of your objection to how TheFallen characterized it. You shouldn't have to point out the problems with that. Did the best I could, and while I'm open to critiques on how I went about that, silence simply wasn't an option.
 
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Rhanddom wrote:
xandryyte wrote:
I was not prepared nor expecting the game to end so quickly...

I do want to apologize to backpacker for my blowup. And apologies to all the players too for what happened after. I deeply regret how I said what I said pretty much immediately.

I am sorry.
That's thoughtful of you, xand. But I still stand by the legitimacy of your initial protest (though replacing out is perhaps a bit strong, but I get that there's context, so even that seems legit enough) and especially of your objection to how TheFallen characterized it. You shouldn't have to point out the problems with that. Did the best I could, and while I'm open to critiques on how I went about that, silence simply wasn't an option.

You're just spare parts
 
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TheFallen wrote:
RoyalApe wrote:
xandryyte wrote:
I was not prepared nor expecting the game to end so quickly...

I do want to apologize to backpacker for my blowup. And apologies to all the players too for what happened after. I deeply regret how I said what I said pretty much immediately.

I am sorry.

I accept it. But I will have hard time with mid game sympathy again.

I think backpacker’s comments were very fair.

I think that concludes my commentary on the matter.

I will, without a doubt, never come back.

Goodbye.
Honestly, Shush, I think you're a better person than that. There's nothing here worth ragequitting a whole community over. Call me a Social Justice Warrior if you want, slang me up down and sideways, whatever. But nobody's out to gaslight you or harangue you or invalidate your own perspective on life. It's a difference of opinion, with some data to back it up.
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Rhanddom wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
RoyalApe wrote:
xandryyte wrote:
I was not prepared nor expecting the game to end so quickly...

I do want to apologize to backpacker for my blowup. And apologies to all the players too for what happened after. I deeply regret how I said what I said pretty much immediately.

I am sorry.

I accept it. But I will have hard time with mid game sympathy again.

I think backpacker’s comments were very fair.

I think that concludes my commentary on the matter.

I will, without a doubt, never come back.

Goodbye.
Honestly, Shush, I think you're a better person than that. There's nothing here worth ragequitting a whole community over. Call me a Social Justice Warrior if you want, slang me up down and sideways, whatever. But nobody's out to gaslight you or harangue you or invalidate your own perspective on life. It's a difference of opinion, with some data to back it up.

Time and time again this community tolerates personal attacks when they are shrouded in indirect comments and passive aggression.

No more. You people are insufficient. You are lacking.
 
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TheFallen wrote:
Rhanddom wrote:
TheFallen wrote:
RoyalApe wrote:
xandryyte wrote:
I was not prepared nor expecting the game to end so quickly...

I do want to apologize to backpacker for my blowup. And apologies to all the players too for what happened after. I deeply regret how I said what I said pretty much immediately.

I am sorry.

I accept it. But I will have hard time with mid game sympathy again.

I think backpacker’s comments were very fair.

I think that concludes my commentary on the matter.

I will, without a doubt, never come back.

Goodbye.
Honestly, Shush, I think you're a better person than that. There's nothing here worth ragequitting a whole community over. Call me a Social Justice Warrior if you want, slang me up down and sideways, whatever. But nobody's out to gaslight you or harangue you or invalidate your own perspective on life. It's a difference of opinion, with some data to back it up.

Time and time again this community tolerates personal attacks when they are shrouded in indirect comments and passive aggression.

No more. You people are insufficient. You are lacking.
I would agree with you that that happens in this community. I've been on the other end of it, and I didn't like it at all. I don't think that this situation fits this pattern, but I'm open to being persuaded. Courtesy is preferred but I can't enforce it on you.
 
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Terri K
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RoyalApe wrote:
Were you in fact evil?
Yeah...
 
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Also willing to make some extra allowances for you on the basis that that's a real thing and you're sensitized to it for real reasons. But I think you forfeit a lot of moral standing (not to say personal dignity) with intemperance in the face of a really fairly mild critique. You generalized beyond your data, you personalized the criticism with the use of a personal name and a gender, and the identification of the criticism as being of a kind that is routinely leveled at women is one that most netizens would find uncontroversial. I called out that criticism — not you as a person — as being (paraphrasing here) needlessly unkind. You can disagree with every single point in that list and I'll listen. But if the way I handled that is a "personal attack", is there any way of saying "yo, dude, not cool" that you'll respond temperately to?
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Thanks for running this, Ludes. I did terribly, of course, but that seems to be the pattern for my seer play in your games. (Curse of Avin *shudders*).

I'd be interested in seeing it tried in a larger format.
 
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TheFallen wrote:
backpacker wrote:
xandryyte wrote:
backpacker wrote:
OK.
I think you've made very few posts actually hunting for wolves
Congratulations, you've made me hate Werewolf again.
This seat is up for replacement again and will remain silent until such time that it isn't vacant.
Terri will be sticking to VS, BGA, and playing on my Switch for a while now.
My answer to my lingering question was, yes... yes, it was too soon since last game. soblue
So its all on me, then? Geez I hate when I do that shake So sorry.
Let the record show, I know nothing about your last game nor any of your 900. All I saw were 11 posts...

Terri's great, but she shouldn't be playing if she can't handle being confronted. There's nothing wrong with not wanting that, but it is an integral part of this game and maybe that's just not for her anymore.

It's not on you.

I mean, I'm open to anybody's advice on how this could have been handled better, or how I could have lodged the substance of my protest in a way that's even less of a personal attack. (Even "be less of a fount of polysyllables and tortured syntax" is within bounds, though ... have you met me?)

TheFallen wrote:
Rhanddom wrote:
I'm going to say that "Terri can't handle being confronted" doesn't fit the situation accurately as I see it (yes, I realize there was an "if" in there and all that, but I think it's a fair paraphrase anyway), and it's also a classic disrespectful putdown of women, whether it's intended that way or not. Any sympathies I may have with the position that "it's a conflict-intensive game, deal with it" are quite firmly overridden by that reality.

I'm going no farther with that in this thread, out of respect for xandryyte's preferences; and I'm not tarring backpacker's push on xand (which I think was at worst context-unaware) with that brush. Just, being sensitive to a particular kind of confrontation at a particular moment is something that happens to all of us. There are ways to allay backpacker's concerns about what may seem to him like a disproportionate reaction without throwing a gender-freighted slam in xandryyte's direction. Let's practice those, shall we?

I'm a misogynist because Terri theows a temper tantrum and rsge quits over someone questioning 11 posts in two game days and I say that is her not being able to be confronted?

That is utter and complete bullshit. And that is as polite as I can be.

This game is off the rails. I can't play with you anymore, Because that is absolutely abhorrent.
 
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And with that I'll stop talking and listen.
 
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Rhanddom, in response, I would say that Fallen's post was addressed to backpacker. At least in my dialect of English, it's hard to refer to xand multiple times at once without using some kind of pronominal referent. So I'm not really sure what else you were expecting him to do there.

-

Looks like a challenging set. I was thinking about how I might have played it. I think there is a case to be made for enlighteners to not share the name of someone who reaches level 7. (Moves away from werewolf and towards awkward social gaming.)

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Suppose the two enlighteners die early. What is to prevent people from being like "welp, let's all [no lynch] and ask the wolves to [no kill] and convert us all so we can all win?" People need to be playing to their current win cons to prevent that/or paranoia about going back on a deal. I think "someone might be at level 7 and unable to convert with us" is a good precaution against this edge case and keeps things more on the werewolf side.
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I think aux corruptor would be more interesting and balanced than wolf corrupters
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Walker
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RoyalApe wrote:
I think aux corruptor would be more interesting and balanced than wolf corrupters

I agree with this.
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I don't have a problem with:
* the wish to support backpacker's position in the conflict
* the use of a personal name (especially immediately after xandryyte referred to herself by name)
* the use of the word "she"; I mean, c'mon, totes normal
* the opinion that, generally speaking, players of social deduction / elimination games should be committed to wearing their asbestos skivvies for the duration

I do have a problem with:
* piling snideness atop sarcasm (in an already tense situation)
* doubling down on the directly personal aspect of the conflict by intentionally (as I read it) addressing person rather than persona
* generalizing beyond the immediate context to a blanket "can't handle being confronted"
* willful obtuseness about how that's a thing that men say about women all the time

Obviously these are all matters of interpretation, not "you used the N-word while grabbing for the underwear zone!" offenses. And interpretations legitimately differ. I thought I proportioned my response accordingly. Nu?
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In this particular case, I felt like a generalization beyond the immediate context was appropriate, because it was referencing a pattern of behavior within different games. That's the same thing that other players had been trying to do when providing context for the read earlier. In the same way we might say "A often posts lots of gifs" or "B often snipes votes near dusk time," I think it has to be fair to say "C often reacts poorly to direct suspicion."
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This is a terrible way to read Korte FWIW.
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Samool wrote:
So does that mean Korte was our (original) sorcerer?

Bingo arrrh
 
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As a dispassionate assessment of how much or how little stimulus it routinely takes to achieve that level of response to an in-game ding on that person's play, for sure and certain that's in-bounds. As a reason why maybe that person shouldn't be playing this game at all, it's ... borderline? Certainly a bit presumptuous; but I'm sometimes presumptuous with my friends, sometimes even with people I don't know that well. I think it's probably always an error in a public forum, though hardly a hanging offense. But context matters; and when xandryyte had already said "it's not you, it's me" and started the process of stepping away, I don't think "don't let the door hit you on the way out!" is the kindest response.

Having said that, I think you're right, generalizing to a degree (even to a degree that makes it only, like, 80% true) is legit and on the level. So I'll shift that to the "things I don't have a problem with" list, and put "generalizing to a degree that one could have reasonably expected the subject of the generalization to find offensive" in its place.
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