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Subject: BGG community/administration. Good friends or worst enemies? rss

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Legend Signum
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Hello dear community,

First of all, I will inform you that it will be a big big post, so be ready to it. :)

I am the representative of boardgame developers team. We have our department here on BGG where we like to share a content with our community and sometimes to take part in different discussions.
I guess it is right decision to tell you the story I faced on this web portal. Probably it will open your eyes.

Few month ago we opened here our department, we liked to share here interesting info, our community and new people opened some topics where asked interesting questions about gameplay, game development and other details.

One day we faced the situation during our Kickstarter campaign, when one company claimed us that we violate their Intellectual Property rights. This information was a complete false and farce.
They requested Kickstarter administration about it and we were suspended. Week after, suspension was cancelled and we returned to our work, which confirmed that the truth was on our side. However, during our suspension we faced the situation, when suspicious facebook pages (sometimes it was new created pages) began to distribute bad and fake information about us while we were suspended, playing on people's emotions and trying to "finish off the injured beast". That wasn't only on FB, it touched Kickstarter (suspicious backers with provocative topics) and other portals including BGG.

We always trying to contact web portals administration to solve this problem if we cannot fight against it by ourselves. We point that the people or they are not real (fake accounts) or they are trolls or provocators, being opposite company's admirers or even their developers representatives... or both.

Board Game Geek was the only portal whose administration answer was very unexpected.
During our suspention here on BGG appeared a comment from a guy whose profile was created some days before the beginning of our Kickstarter campaign (5.05.18 - 8.05.18), but probably this is a coincidence. Nevertheless, when we will go to his user's profile, just look at his actions. I don't know are his other comments false or not, but I can surely tell that his main aim on BGG is to make bad points and reviews to other projects.

I will not comment this more, but just attach images with some marks -https://imgur.com/a/zJgxreG

He made a review about our game as follows:
"This company violates intellectual properies. Their Kickstarter was stopped. Avoid." with 1 point mark (honestly we don't care about 1 point).
The fact we were defrosted showed that the truth was completely on our side and this suspension is the Kickstarter rules to suspend possible violators until the problem will be solved (because if somebody are real violators, their actions need to be stopped imediately, so this is right policy).

But when any new user was entering our department - this message was the first message he saw. And what do you think, would it be a good impression about our game, when new follower will see this message that we allegedly violators and somebody calls to avoid this product? Of course many people will avoid our product and will not figure out whether this is the truth or false.
Our company cares about good atmosphere inside our community, we always try to maintain it and when we face such injustice, we are trying to fight against it.

The most interesting part took its place when we asked BGG administration to tell us what we can do with it. They answered that they can do nothing if somebody violates anything on that portal. They not impose any penalties to anyone and the only thing they can do is to temporarily hide this message, but they didn't see any violations there. It was a very disappointing answer, so I asked them to show their community rules and policy to get acquainted with. In this rules I found the words that they could impose that penalties to violators and our issue was fit there (slander). My tries to explain this contradiction to administrator (Matthew M (Octavian)) was for nothing. He didn't care.

Anyway, we are fighters, so if administration cannot do something with it, we will do it by our owns. So we contacted this guy and told him that we will sue him in accordance of international Defamation Law if this slander will be remained here. He reacted quickly... he didn't apologize, but rephrased comment, which was enough. Thus the problem disappeared.

But still...

A while ago, we faced another guy who left the review under our game, in which he claimed us in spamming messages on reddit in the topics about best designed rulesbook.

This also was a false. Now for everyone to see what happend after that, I attach my conversation with administrator Octavian. Make your own conclusions about it.


1) Our message to the guy who distributed abovementioned info:

Quote:
Hello Michael,

After reviewing your mention about our game:

"Publisher spammed links to rules in Reddit thread about best rulebooks, completely off topic self-promotion"

We can answer that this is false information.
Spamming is the use of messaging systems to send an unsolicited message (spam), especially advertising, as well as sending messages repeatedly on the same site.

First of all this wasn't spam, because this message was sent only once.
The second important thing is about "completely off topic self-promotion".
The topic opened in reddit was devoted to beatiful designed rulesbooks which was requested by post creator. Most of users gave links to rulesbooks designed not better than rulesbook of our game.
Therefore we ask to reword this phrase, because it making bad/false imagination about our game/company. We gave our rulesbook to give, to ones who searched for good designed rulesbook, our rulesbook to receive some opinions and to involve our rulesbook into this involuntary competition.

Otherwise we will advise to BGG administration for help in this issue and to impose penalties to your account.

Thank you for your attention and understanding the situation.

Sincerely,
Signumgame team



2) Administrator's answer:

Quote:
Hi Signumgame team,

The below geekmail threatening a BGG member with "penalties" if they do not make demanded changes to his ratings/comments is highly inappropriate and unwelcome behavior on this site. In particular, saying that BGG would "impose penalties to your account" not only implies that you have the authority to make those penalties happen (you do not), is entirely untrue (we would not impose any sort of penalty in such a situation.)

Sending threatening geekmails, on the other hand, is a violation of our site rules and will result in penalties imposed on your account if anything like this happens again. Please see that it does not.

Let me know if you have any questions.


3) Our last comment about this issue:

Quote:
Hello Matthew and administration team,

This is a very unpleasant situation at all. When couple of months ago we appealed to you about serious violation on your site (defamation), when one company tried to stop our campaign with claim in which we allegedly violate their intellectual property, which was a fault. Yes, our Kickstarter was suspended for one week, because it is their main rules to suspend probable violators until they will solve any problems with the ones who claimed. In simple terms the fact we were suspended doesn't mean we are violators.
Anyway, we were "defrosted", which meant the opposite company has not anything to sue us and the truth was with us.

Here on BGG appeared a troll (same trolls were on our Facebook and Kickstarter pages), who wrote the message as follows:
"This company violates intellectual property, their Kickstarter was stopped. Avoid." - I guess anyone who has at least any logic will tell that this is a false information, which makes a bad imagination about our company and our game. He didn't say that this was his opinion, no. He said it like a true fact. Therefore, we immediately asked you to solve this trouble and help. Not only on BGG we faced the situation, when opposite company's representative or their admirers tried to distribute bad information about us wherever they could.

Your administration's reply was a bit confused, and we just let it all go, dealing with it. You answered that you cannot impose penalties to anyone, even if they wrote very bad information or something like.

And now, you threatening us that you impose penalties, only because we wrote something you did not like, but as I mentioned above, you do not impose penalties to anyone's produced content on that site, even if this is violation (see your previous messages). So that you threatening us with the things which contradicts with your main policy.

Did you see what the second guy (who asked you to do this) do? After we replied that his information was a false, that we didn't spam and we did not do something which violates reddit topics rules, we just took part in the conversation about best designed game rulesbooks. Are we board game company? - Yes. Have we our good designed rulesbook? - Yes. What was the problem? The guy decided to tell that we made advertisement this way, but we even haven't post any links, just good designed rulesbook to take part in this competition between others rulesbook, probably to hear their opinions and the like.

What did this guy told when we point him that we didn't anything bad? He answered nothing about it, he just remake the comment like "The company asked me to remake this comment and threats me". This is a behaviour of the one whose the only aim was to find something to cling to, and to make bad imagination about us.

However, unpleasant thing is that this contradiction appeared here, when the only way to fight against trolls is to tell that we will advise with administration about the possibility to impose penalties and to do something to solve this problem. This was our opinion and we always will advise with administration of web portal, when will face injustice.
I did not tell that we hundredly percent impose that penalty, but "will advise", this is a big difference you must to understand.

Instead of fighting injustice, you prefer to have double standards, in one hand you tell us that anyone here can tell anything and nobody will not be suspended for that (look at your previous messages few months ago), on the other hand you tell us that you will suspend us, because we told something unpleasant for you. Complete censorship.

I cannot say why this situation occurs repeatedly against us (you see it's not first time) and administration would rather ban us instead of the violators. Despite the fact we young and non-american company usually we face someone who tries to stop us. I barely understand policy of this site if they allow to spread the population of trolls on their portal. With such approach this community will wither and rot after all, they will became full of trolls and aggressive persons. It's your decision to have the community you think you deserve.

Will the same situation happen again? - We will ask the one who did it to stop their defamation and will tell them that we are going to ask/advise administration to solve this problem.

I don't want to say that this is xenophobia, but it's very close to it. Double standard touches the ones, who small and young (especially non-american) but not someone strong with a power and experience. It's your right to do so. First of all moral right.

I see that there is no sense to ask/advise administration about injustice, because they have their meaning of justice in their minds.
We not against bad reviews and bad marks about our game, but convercely, we like to see even negative reviews/critics, but devoted to our game, especially gameplay, translations and the like. When somebody's critics became a lie and false information - this is a thing we will always fight against.

Anyway if we will face the troll we don't have any other rights but tell him that we will try to stop his action. Would it be asking for administration or other methods, we will try our best to stop trolls.

I'm sure even after reading all of this you will never understand our position and keep this politics till the end. From our side I did all I could - I told you everything about it.
You don´t want to believe us? - this is your right. Same right we have when we express our opinion and our view of the situation.

If you want, you can keep judging one-sidedly. From this moment we are stopping to care about it on this web portal.

Thank you for your attention and feel free to ask if you have any other questions.


____________________________

Thank you very much for your attention.


For somebody who would tell that we need to ignore such critics or something - bull*hit, it is not critics, this is a lie, which could make bad first impress and scare the people who probably were interested in our game.
If you a guy who just like to buy games you probably will not understand the developer, especially brand new, who always care about good atmosphere inside our community, noone (company/developers) likes a public defamation, because it makes bad reputation for the ones who didn't deserve it. And from our side - we always ready to fight against injustice. The truth will always win, we just need to never give up and to fight injustice till the end.

Sincerely,
Yevhenii

Signumgame team

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Emile de Maat
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Moved Thread
Moved this thread to the Complaints Department.
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Clyde W
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I dunno, maybe this whole game creation gig isn't really for you...
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Bryan Thunkd
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Honestly, you seem like a bully who goes around threatening people when they say things you don’t care for.
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Legend Signum
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Quote:
I dunno, maybe this whole game creation gig isn't really for you...


Why do you think so?
For instance if someone would make an advertisement in your street, in which your family would be unfairly accused? And the authorities would tell you that they can do nothing with it.
Your actions?
I doubt I would name you a bully.
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Legend Signum
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Quote:
Honestly, you seem like a bully who goes around threatening people when they say things you don’t care for.


I doubt you were related to creation something new (projects and the like).
When you will face similar situations, only then you will understand this position.
Or probably Americans have other mentality. To ignore injustice and to fight against it only in case when it touches particularly them.
 
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C Bazler
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You want to crowdfund? Get ready for the crowd.

Also: Be careful of what you wish for. This could backfire. The more you push this issue and try to micromanage what strangers on the internet say about you or your game, threatening vague and legally tenuous litigious action, the more likely you are to annoy even more bystanders who won't hesitate to give your game a "1" rating for no reason.



EDIT: And I see it is already happening
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Liam
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Just a volunteer admin - I don't make site policy or have any say (beyond any other user) when it comes to the site.

BGG is based in the US but is an international site with contributors and users from all over the world. Everyone, regardless of where they are from or what language they speak, is treated equally and have the same responsibility to act in accordance with the Community Rules.

Any suggestion that because BGG warned you that your behaviour was not in keeping with the Community Rules and therefore, because you are not from the US or a native English speaker, BGG is xenophobic is entirely unjust, unreasonable and runs contrary to creating a good atmosphere or reputation.
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I've rated you a 1. Go on then, take me to court.
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Legend Signum
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Quote:
BGG is based in the US but is an international site with contributors and users from all over the world. Everyone, regardless of where they are from or what language they speak, is treated equally and have the same responsibility to act in accordance with the Community Rules.

Any suggestion that because BGG warned you that your behaviour was not in keeping with the Community Rules and therefore, because you are not from the US or a native English speaker, BGG is xenophobic is entirely unjust, unreasonable and runs contrary to creating a good atmosphere or reputation.


I told it something similar to xenophobia and I explained why it was seen so. What is the reason of one-sided justice, how do you explain that?

They do not predict a slander and tell that administration will not ban any violations here whatever they were; and in the same time they threatening to impose penalties to us because we asked the user to stop defamation(that is why we told that we will ask administration to do something with it).
 
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Legend Signum
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I've rated you a 1. Go on then, take me to court.


This is your right and we accept that.
As i told above, even if there would be only 1 points, the only our ask is not to tell the lie/defamation things below your rate.
I would rather say that the series of 1 points in a row without any reason seems like somebody's plan to break our campaign with bots.

Anyway, we are always glad to hear some critics about game development, gameplay, translations, design and the like. It helps to improve the game.

Just do not distribute a lie, that would be a behaviour of bad person and this is the only ours ask.
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:
Quote:
I've rated you a 1. Go on then, take me to court.


This is your right and we accept that.
As i told above, even if there would be only 1 points, the only our ask is not to tell the lie/defamation things below your rate.
I would rather say that the series of 1 points in a row without any reason seems like somebody's plan to break our campaign with bots.

Anyway, we are always glad to hear some critics about game development, gameplay, translations, design and the like. It helps to improve the game.

Just do not distribute a lie, that would be a behaviour of bad person.


If people are defaming you why aren't you taking legal action?
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:
Quote:
Honestly, you seem like a bully who goes around threatening people when they say things you don’t care for.


I doubt you were related to creation something new (projects and the like).
When you will face similar situations, only then you will understand this position.
Or probably Americans have other mentality. To ignore injustice and to fight against it only in case when it touches particularly them.
I doubt you understand how to curry favor in the online community. Or maybe Ukranians have some other mentality. To threaten and insult people online and believe it will positively influence their agenda.
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:
Quote:
BGG is based in the US but is an international site with contributors and users from all over the world. Everyone, regardless of where they are from or what language they speak, is treated equally and have the same responsibility to act in accordance with the Community Rules.

Any suggestion that because BGG warned you that your behaviour was not in keeping with the Community Rules and therefore, because you are not from the US or a native English speaker, BGG is xenophobic is entirely unjust, unreasonable and runs contrary to creating a good atmosphere or reputation.


I told it something similar to xenophobia and I explained why it was seen so. What is the reason of one-sided justice, how do you explain that?

They do not predict a slander and tell that administration will not ban any violations here whatever they were; and in the same time they threatening to impose penalties to us because we asked the user to stop defamation(that is why we told that we will ask administration to do something with it).


You asked and clearly the site either didn't agree with you or/and wouldn't do what you wanted.

This isn't about where anyone is from or what language they speak.

I personally as a user, believe your injection of the term 'xenophobic' was very deliberate and entirely unjust.
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Grant
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This is some of the most unintentionally hilarious shit ever. I love it.
LegendsOfSignum is such a PR train wreck, and they JUST. CAN'T. STOP.
laughlaughlaugh
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Thunkd wrote:
I doubt you understand how to curry favor in the online community. Or maybe Ukranians have some other mentality. To threaten and insult people online and believe it will positively influence their agenda.


In terms of it being a different mentality, I just got someone else from Eastern Europe (Bulgaria) what she thought of the posts from LoS. Her reponse would get moderated.
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Legend Signum
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If people are defaming you why aren't you taking legal action?


They did it, but after we discuss it directly with them - they fixed the comments and removed the problem.

If it wasn't defamation they would prove their words instead of removing defamation, isn't it?

Otherways they accept that.
The reason I wrote wasn't to specify that persons. I showed you the actions of administration, who telling one, but then doing another.
 
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:
If it wasn't defamation they would prove their words instead of removing defamation, isn't it?

Yes, that is clearly the only possible explanation. It couldn't have anything to do with you bullying and/or annoying them into submission. Nope. Can't be that.
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Legend Signum
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In terms of it being a different mentality, I just got someone else from Eastern Europe (Bulgaria) what she thought of the posts from LoS. Her reponse would get moderated.


Show this to someone who will assess that without a bias.
 
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If I went to your game's page and saw a singular negative comment, I, and most people, would have probably written it off as a possible troll or as someone with a grudge. It would have ment very little here at BGG.

How you're handling this is bad. It makes me think one of two things is happening:

1. You might be innocent, but you have bad judgement and no ability to handle yourself professionally. Why would I choose to give money to someone with bad judgement?

2. Maybe the commenter is correct.
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:


Show this to someone who will assess that without a bias.


Hey, I'm happy for you to carry on this dumpster fire of a PR campaign.
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Legend Signum
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Yes, that is clearly the only possible explanation. It couldn't have anything to do with you bullying and/or annoying them into submission. Nope. Can't be that.


We just very different. If I claimed someone in proved violation, and they will bullying me for that, I would rather prove their violation and fight against that instead of accepting and hiding like a coward.
 
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LegendsOfSignum wrote:


We just very different. If I claimed someone in proved violation, and they will bullying me for that, I would rather prove their violation and fight against that instead of accepting and hiding like a coward.


But you are a coward. I've challenged you to put up or shut up on your legal threats and you've refused to.
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Legend Signum
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Quote:
If I went to your game's page and saw a singular negative comment, I, and most people, would have probably written it off. It would have ment very little here at BGG.

How you're handling this is bad. It makes me think one of two things is happening:

1. You might be innocent, but you have bad judgement and no ability to handle yourself professionally. Why would I choose to give money to someone with bad judgement?

2. Maybe the poster is correct.


Sometimes one bad comment about violating intellectual properties is enough
I doubt that this is unprofessional to fight against someone who tell the fake information about your campaign..
There is a proverb (it is translated from the Russian and it could sounds not exactly): If you will ignore a little evil made to you, you will not be prepared to a big one.

 
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But you are a coward. I've challenged you to put up or shut up on your legal threats and you've refused to.


Why should I make a legal threats to you? Did you make something violating the rules?
 
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