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Subject: Cardboard thickness? rss

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baboon baboonov
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What is the cardboard thickness of the die-cut components, the map etc.?

I presume that it is 3mm, which might explain the huge box

This info should definitely be written in the KS page!
 
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luigi 'bove' de feo
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baboonov wrote:
What is the cardboard thickness of the die-cut components, the map etc.?

I presume that it is 3mm, which might explain the huge box

This info should definitely be written in the KS page!

You are right, we have to write on KS page.

The faction boards and the wheels are double layered 2mm for each layer!
Then it's 3mm for each punchboard.
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Bernhard W
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elbove wrote:
baboonov wrote:
What is the cardboard thickness of the die-cut components, the map etc.?

I presume that it is 3mm, which might explain the huge box

This info should definitely be written in the KS page!

You are right, we have to write on KS page.

The faction boards and the wheels are double layered 2mm for each layer!
Then it's 3mm for each punchboard.

I read that some deluxe games have this upgrade. As the reason to why Cranio did this, they mentioned on KS: "we chose to give you Barrage the most ergonomic and usable as possible"

I'm quite torn if this is the correct choice for a retail edition. The 1 extra mm thickness adds a fair bit of negatives too: higher cost in production for using more material (also for a bigger box), and an increase in shipping and warehouse costs (larger volume and weight).

The biggest impact for me is that the base game alone will require +/-30mm more shelf height than it would with standard 2mm cardboards. With other games, I can ignore the KS deluxe version and wait for a retail version that suits me better. Sadly, that's not an option here. I guess comes down to you can't make all happy. I wished a standard approach where players have the choice of bling vs practicality was available here.
 
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If it were me running this campaign (since it's hit a snag) I would be cutting any deluxe upgrade that's questionable so I could make the current stretch goals more attainable or so I could guarantee the metal coins for deluxe backers.

3mm boards would be the first to go then I'd swamp all the contract tiles and starting set up tiles for cards. Also make the solo mode use cards instead of tiles.

I think at that point you'd be saving at least a dollar or two per box and would have room to include some of the more substantial stretch goals that people have been looking for.

Past that I would print more metal coins than the KS needs (to hit the economies of scale they're looking for) and sell them as limited time promotional items on the Cranio website or at fairs for €25-€30 so deluxe backers still feel like they got a good deal during the kickstarter.

 
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Sander Schippers
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If you cut the coins from deluxe pledge the pledge will fall to 79 same as previous pledge. That is not possible.
 
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Bernhard W
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elbove wrote:
baboonov wrote:
What is the cardboard thickness of the die-cut components, the map etc.?

I presume that it is 3mm, which might explain the huge box

This info should definitely be written in the KS page!

You are right, we have to write on KS page.

The faction boards and the wheels are double layered 2mm for each layer!
Then it's 3mm for each punchboard.

That didn't happen (from Update #44):

- Common Boards 2.5mm
- Company Boards 2.5mm
- Punched Components 1.5mm
- Technology Tiles 2.5mm

(That will save Cranio a fair bit in production and shipping costs)
 
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Becq
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Note that the Company boards may be either 2.5 or 3; the thickness was different in the text update vs the video. And it sounds like Cranio is shipping us 1.5mm tech tiles AND 2.5mm tech tiles, so the shipping costs might not be reduced as much as they might have liked...

I'm ok with the 1.5mm contract tiles; they pointed out that thicker tiles would be unwieldy when stacked, and I agree with that logic. I think 2.5mm for the tech tiles is probably ok, too. I hope.

The 2.5mm dual-layered boards still seem a bit thin, and I'm still a bit uncertain about the wheel.
 
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Derek Bowen
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BeloW06 wrote:
elbove wrote:
baboonov wrote:
What is the cardboard thickness of the die-cut components, the map etc.?

I presume that it is 3mm, which might explain the huge box

This info should definitely be written in the KS page!

You are right, we have to write on KS page.

The faction boards and the wheels are double layered 2mm for each layer!
Then it's 3mm for each punchboard.

That didn't happen (from Update #44):

- Common Boards 2.5mm
- Company Boards 2.5mm
- Punched Components 1.5mm
- Technology Tiles 2.5mm

(That will save Cranio a fair bit in production and shipping costs)


And hurt them a fair bit in Barrage and all future kickstarter related sales, because they've essentially confirmed that information they tell us about the quality of the product cannot be relied on.

Trust is key to running successful kickstarters, and it's one thing to deliver underwhelming quality, but an entirely different thing to do that when you promised backers you were enticing to pay for the product in advance a much higher level of quality.
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Becq wrote:
I'm ok with the 1.5mm contract tiles; they pointed out that thicker tiles would be unwieldy when stacked, and I agree with that logic.


But they always knew the contracts would be stacked so why make the 3mm promise in the first place? And why change it now without consulting or informing anyone? At the very least they could have made the contracts 1.5mm and left everything else 3mm.


I always thought it was a dumb idea to make everything cardboard tiles rather than using cards for contracts and the solo mode but now we're stuck with this weird half measure.

Hopefully the components aren't as flimsy as the cardboard in Cranio's Houses of the Renaissance expansion. I measured those components and they're about 1.5mm and they're pretty dreadful.
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Becq
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Jimmydm90 wrote:
But they always knew the contracts would be stacked so why make the 3mm promise in the first place? And why change it now without consulting or informing anyone? At the very least they could have made the contracts 1.5mm and left everything else 3mm.

I agree, they should have at least let us know about the planned change. It's also possible that they changed everything to 1.5mm to save on production or shipping costs, then realized after the fact that 1.5 was too thin and changed that.

Which brings up an interesting question: if they are including the thin punchboard sheets as originally produced, and also thicker sheets for the technology tiles, will we also end up with both sizes of some or all of the other components? Or did they design out a new punchboard sheet with only the tech tiles?

Quote:
I always thought it was a dumb idea to make everything cardboard tiles rather than using cards for contracts and the solo mode but now we're stuck with this weird half measure.

I actually think the thin cardboard will be better for the contracts. I agree that it would have worked if they were cards, but I like the idea of them being thin cardboard. YMMV.

Quote:
Hopefully the components aren't as flimsy as the cardboard in Cranio's Houses of the Renaissance expansion. I measured those components and they're about 1.5mm and they're pretty dreadful.

I haven't measured out anything to compare, but my inclination is to say that 1.5 is thin but workable for everything except the tech. That needed to be thicker, and it sounds like it is. The contracts needed to be thinner, and they will be. I'd *prefer* the rest of the tiles to be thicker, but I think they will be ok. Maybe not as chunky as they could have been, but ok. I might change my mind when I feel them, I suppose.

I'm still concerned about the wheel.
 
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Yeah I still have my doubts about the construction wheel. At the very least it'll be better. I'm interested to punch out the 1.5mm tech tiles and do a compare and contrast.

I definitely think it was a situation where they decided to cut costs on the cardboard across all parts of the game (Why? I don't know because they've haven't been very open with us) but they weren't able to serviceably get by with 1.5mm on the construction wheel so they had to eat the cost and redo it rather than just getting it right the first time with thicker tiles.

It does make me nervous/annoyed that we paid a deluxe price for the game and seems that Cranio has tried to cut corners without telling people on at least a couple of occasions. It might turn out fine, I'm sure the pieces won't be unplayable (maybe the wheel) but it doesn't instill a lot of faith or goodwill in me when it comes to Cranio.

 
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Bernhard W
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Jimmydm90 wrote:
Becq wrote:
I'm ok with the 1.5mm contract tiles; they pointed out that thicker tiles would be unwieldy when stacked, and I agree with that logic.


But they always knew the contracts would be stacked so why make the 3mm promise in the first place? And why change it now without consulting or informing anyone? At the very least they could have made the contracts 1.5mm and left everything else 3mm.


I always thought it was a dumb idea to make everything cardboard tiles rather than using cards for contracts and the solo mode but now we're stuck with this weird half measure.

Hopefully the components aren't as flimsy as the cardboard in Cranio's Houses of the Renaissance expansion. I measured those components and they're about 1.5mm and they're pretty dreadful.

That's what Cranio has to say about it:
Quote:
"We didn't promise 3mm tiles on the campaign. Riccardo only made an enthusiastic comments about this on BGG but, unfortunately, without having the final go from the production team."

With the lack of communication in the KS, BGG and other social media do not count as a reliable source by Cranio standards shake
 
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I call BS. They knew the 3mm thing was out there. People posted about it in the KS comments and here on BGG. If they knew all along that it wasn't true why not nip it in the bud from the beginning?
 
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Peter Brooks
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Jimmydm90 wrote:
I call BS. They knew the 3mm thing was out there. People posted about it in the KS comments and here on BGG. If they knew all along that it wasn't true why not nip it in the bud from the beginning?


Wasn't it the same guy responding on KS initially and here? If that were the case, there wouldn't be anything to nip.


With that said, I didn't recall anything about thicknesses being mentioned until after the KS was over, and even then only by backers at that point (I know now they were drawing from statements made on BGG). But I was not all in for the entire campaign, and couldn't possibly follow all the comments either, so perhaps they said such on KS too.
 
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It wasn't just Luigi, Riccardo also posted on BGG threads where the 3mm things were being discussed so he undoubtedly saw it. Riccardo also mentioned "thick die cut elements" at one point. 1.5mm may be acceptable but it's definitely leaning towards the thinner side of average board game production.

Backers commented about it in the ks comments during the campaign at least a few times, maybe only Luigi saw that.

For months since the campaign people have been commenting about 3mm in ways that were hard to miss. People even directly asked Cranio about it and yet they said nothing until now.

Something I've been thinking about is there were two moments during the campaign where Cranio dramatically changed course to make the game cheaper or make stretch goals more accessible and I wonder if that's what lead to some of the issues/miscommunication related to Barrage.

1st change. Was during the preview for the kickstarter. Originally the top tier was 120 euros but they got a lot of backlash so they cut things and dropped it to 99 euros.

2nd. Was about midway through the campaign when people were unhappy with the stretch goals and worried we wouldn't hit 475k to unlock the metal coins. Cranio shifted stuff around, made the solo mode and metal coins more reachable (400k) and then announced a handful of other stretch goals.

If these changes were as sudden as it seemed it's possible they miscalculated and had to make changes/cut costs to hit their budget and the first things to go were the less overt promises.

Of course that's all speculation.



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Becq
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Yeah, that assessment makes sense -- they may have originally planned a higher price point with thicker boards, then shifted to a lower price point with thinner boards at the last moment. Then they misspoke, citing the original plans, and others overlooked the comments because that was the original plan.
 
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