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Subject: barrage vs kickstarter rss

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Rupert Defossez
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As mentioned before , this game looks amazing.

But they made "time" a stretch goal.

Result 1: No group pledges, NO retail pledges -> missing a lot of backers (like me) around 500 / 1000 backers, maybe more are probably lost this way.
Think about the high shipping costs, group pledges would solve part of this problem.

Result 2: because the game has to be produced almost immediately after the campaign, there is no room for proper input from backers or product development.which is a shame. ( the coins, the boxes, ...)

Result 3: Because of the above , and the lack of interesting Stretch-goals,
for the deluxe edition ( everybody likes SG that upgrades gameplay, or game experience , and not some quick thrown in prints that add nothing to the game itself), people start dropping out or reducing their pledge.

Result 4: because of the above, the SOLO mode is still way out of reach , even more backers drop their pledge. Or they wait longer.

All this because of the "time" exclusive thing.

For me kickstarter is a about getting games on the table, and give new designers a chance to get their game out there, and seeing it played and enjoyed by as many different people possible. And not the pleasure of being first and playing a certain game while the rest of the world cannot!

For me it looks like Cranio has shot themselves in the foot.
I wonder what Tommaso Battista and Simone Luciani think about it.

please tell me if I'm wrong.
This said , " Barrage" has me intrigued , and I will buy this game sooner or later, and I will play it and forget this whole issue.


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Randolph Bookman
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My initial excitement was stalled by3 boxes and almost 200 dollars after shipping for exclusives.Add to that my personal abundance of games,the game comes from designers that have been hit and miss with me and hearing rhado say it was too complicated for him [and he likes LaCerta games]set off enough alarms to hold off. Wishing them the best and will check not out when it is released.
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Jamie Maltman
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I’m into the “find excuses not to back on KS and wait for retail” phase of my KS experience, and you did a good summary of why I’m ok waiting here. Group buy to get shipping down to reasonable might have tipped me over, because this is currently one of the top games I’m interested in, anywhere. But I’m fine waiting 6 months and forgoing extras - at this shipping price.
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Gregg Speers
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I didn't see enough compelling reasons to jump in on the KS. The play through video that Cranio produced wasn't anything special (in fact it is pretty awful) and with this being Cranio's first time with KS, I am not of the interest of paying a premium price until the product is produced and has some quality reviews/session reports and a quality walkthrough / play video to back it up.
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Riccardo Previdi
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I'm basically OK with all that you said, I'm currently sitting at €79 pledge (i personally don't find the 3D map worth €20...)... and, as an italian, I enjoy free shipping... nevertheless, I am *strongly* thinking about dropping my pledge.
(I don't know why, but Italian endeavours on KS always struggles)

1. Time as a SG: Terrible idea
2. Solo mode as a SG: Terrible, Terrible idea. Multiple backers, even before the campaign launched, pointed out (and were ignored) that major companies always list Solo Mode right from the start.
3. Multiple boxes? I personally don't mind, but can easily see that that this is a bad idea.
4. Arts Print as a SG: Terrible, Terrible idea.

What hurts me is that, while this is Cranio's first KS, they are an already established company in Italy, and they also have one of the most brilliant, responsive, and precise customer care and customer support. But looks like they choose a "strange" approach to this KS campaign.
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shieldwolf wrote:
My initial excitement was stalled by3 boxes and almost 200 dollars after shipping for exclusives.


$200 is an extreme exaggeration if you're from the USA like your badge says. The most you can pay in the US is about $134. Still a lot but not anywhere near $200.

Quote:
and hearing rhado say it was too complicated for him [and he likes LaCerta games]set off enough alarms to hold off.


Haven't played Barrage but based on play throughs and reading the rules this game seems far less convoluted and easier to teach than Lacerda games I've played. Perhaps it's just the long term planning that makes Barrage a heavy game but I feel like I could teach the game in like 10 minutes.

Also this game has more direct interaction than Rahdo typically likes.
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André Heines
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I've tried to figure out what "Time SG" you are talking about, but don't get it. I went through the KS page, but still no idea. Can anybody tell me?
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Jamie Maltman
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Rukus wrote:
I've tried to figure out what "Time SG" you are talking about, but don't get it. I went through the KS page, but still no idea. Can anybody tell me?


Time as the main KS Exclusive - not actually a SG.
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Enrico Helbig
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Time means, that this game is exclusive for Kickstarterbackers for 6 months any hits normal retail in Essen2019.
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Rupert Defossez
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Rukus wrote:
I've tried to figure out what "Time SG" you are talking about, but don't get it. I went through the KS page, but still no idea. Can anybody tell me?


with "time" as a stretch goal , i mean a privilege for backers with creditcards. ( no group or retail pledges )

translated: people with healthy cash flow can play the game before others.

very dangerous idea : where will this end? Players who pledge a $1000 dollars can play the game before people who pledged $500 , who then again can play a year before the retail comes out.

OK this is exaggerated but still,...


its good to see that the gaming community prefers quality above speed.
remember:
if its cheap and fast it won't be good
if its good and fast it won't be cheap
if its good and cheap it won't be fast
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André Heines
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Okay, that makes sense to me. Well, the good thing about not having a credit card is, that I can't just back anything that looks fancy.
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Mitch Harding
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bordspelkampion wrote:
translated: people with healthy cash flow can play the game before others.

very dangerous idea : where will this end? Players who pledge a $1000 dollars can play the game before people who pledged $500 , who then again can play a year before the retail comes out.

OK this is exaggerated but still

I don't see why this is a dangerous or bad idea. A lot of Kickstarters involve various mechanisms whereby wealthier backers enjoy extra benefits that are not proportionate to their cost. In this way, the rich folks help make the game better for everyone.

For example, a lot of KS projects (not just board games) offer "vanity" pledges where you can pledge a lot of money to get your name or picture incorporated somehow. The actual cost to fulfill the pledge is much less than what the backers pays for it, and the difference goes toward the product itself.

I've also seen projects offer pledges where you pay extra to get the first shipment of the product.

I guess my point is that having these things allows the entire product to be improved, even for regular backers or retail purchasers. I don't see how that's harmful.

Note, I'm not addressing the complaints made by the OP, only the idea that offering early access for a higher price is somehow a dangerous trend.
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I still don't understand why the "what's in the box" section doesn't show the components that have been unlocked.

Like this.

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Rupert Defossez
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mitcharf wrote:
bordspelkampion wrote:
translated: people with healthy cash flow can play the game before others.

very dangerous idea : where will this end? Players who pledge a $1000 dollars can play the game before people who pledged $500 , who then again can play a year before the retail comes out.

OK this is exaggerated but still

I don't see why this is a dangerous or bad idea. A lot of Kickstarters involve various mechanisms whereby wealthier backers enjoy extra benefits that are not proportionate to their cost. In this way, the rich folks help make the game better for everyone.

For example, a lot of KS projects (not just board games) offer "vanity" pledges where you can pledge a lot of money to get your name or picture incorporated somehow. The actual cost to fulfill the pledge is much less than what the backers pays for it, and the difference goes toward the product itself.

I've also seen projects offer pledges where you pay extra to get the first shipment of the product.

I guess my point is that having these things allows the entire product to be improved, even for regular backers or retail purchasers. I don't see how that's harmful.
Note, I'm not addressing the complaints made by the OP, only the idea that offering early access for a higher price is somehow a dangerous trend.


Everything you say is true, and is a nobel idea ,an also the purpose of kickstarter. to get the product launched. so everybody can enjoy it. completely completely agree.

only in this "barrage" campaign there is no retailer or group pledge so this is ONLY for wealthier backers ,and that is not everybody, and that is not nobel.
you give an example where you could pay xtra to get first shipment, I understand. Did they have group or retail pledges?
In this campaign if you have no credit card you cannot buy the game, the end.

I wrote to Cranio about it and the only thing they said was "sorry, for now we can't help you"; that feels bad.
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Duo Maxwell
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shieldwolf wrote:
My initial excitement was stalled by3 boxes and almost 200 dollars after shipping for exclusives.Add to that my personal abundance of games,the game comes from designers that have been hit and miss with me and hearing rhado say it was too complicated for him [and he likes LaCerta games]set off enough alarms to hold off. Wishing them the best and will check not out when it is released.


I do not believe Rahdo used the word "Complicated".

He said it was a bit too "Heavy" for his taste.

He said there is so much deep planning for the future.

Seems like he didn't like the fact it can be cut throat because people can redirect the water to side step all of your dams.

Yeah, I just listened to it again, he did *not* use the word "Complicated"

Maybe you think Heavy = Complicated but I think there is a distinction.


To me...Heavy means lots of deep brain burny choices perhaps too many choices that could result in analysis paralysis. I have never played feast of odin but I hear it's a Euro where from the start you have 60 different choices to choose from and that can be a bit overwhelming. Just like going to a buffet at a Las Vegas casino your eyes begin to glaze over with all of the choices.......but who doesn't love a Las Vegas Buffet? (kidding). And I don't think it is a point salad where you can get points from 100 different ways but there are several different ways to optimize your engine to yield victory points.


Salad??......Buffet?? Somebody skipped lunch today.
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Duo Maxwell
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Jimmydm90 wrote:
I still don't understand why the "what's in the box" section doesn't show the components that have been unlocked.

Like this.



Is it me or do the meeples look like the bad guys from the SPACE INVADERS video game???
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Mitch Harding
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bordspelkampion wrote:
Everything you say is true, and is a nobel idea ,an also the purpose of kickstarter. to get the product launched. so everybody can enjoy it. completely completely agree.

only in this "barrage" campaign there is no retailer or group pledge so this is ONLY for wealthier backers ,and that is not everybody, and that is not nobel.
you give an example where you could pay xtra to get first shipment, I understand. Did they have group or retail pledges?
In this campaign if you have no credit card you cannot buy the game, the end.

Unless I misunderstand things, you will still be able to get the game even if you don't pledge in the Kickstarter campaign -- you'll just have to wait longer. And that relates to my point -- the Kickstarter backers are paying to get the game made, as a reward they get the game early, and then everyone who didn't back also benefits once the game goes to retail.

Personally, I'm kind of curious about this Kickstarter model where the game is delivered so quickly to backers. I'm much more accustomed to receiving my Kickstarter games almost after I've forgotten about them. I guess time will tell if this strategy is better, worse, or just different than the normal one.
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Duo Maxwell
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mitcharf wrote:
bordspelkampion wrote:
Everything you say is true, and is a nobel idea ,an also the purpose of kickstarter. to get the product launched. so everybody can enjoy it. completely completely agree.

only in this "barrage" campaign there is no retailer or group pledge so this is ONLY for wealthier backers ,and that is not everybody, and that is not nobel.
you give an example where you could pay xtra to get first shipment, I understand. Did they have group or retail pledges?
In this campaign if you have no credit card you cannot buy the game, the end.

Unless I misunderstand things, you will still be able to get the game even if you don't pledge in the Kickstarter campaign -- you'll just have to wait longer. And that relates to my point -- the Kickstarter backers are paying to get the game made, as a reward they get the game early, and then everyone who didn't back also benefits once the game goes to retail.

Personally, I'm kind of curious about this Kickstarter model where the game is delivered so quickly to backers. I'm much more accustomed to receiving my Kickstarter games almost after I've forgotten about them. I guess time will tell if this strategy is better, worse, or just different than the normal one.


I agree, I am worried they will "rush" it and screw something up. Often times especially with technology and vehicles, it is good to be a late adopter because all of the kinks/bugs are worked out.
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Jamie Maltman
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Their model is:

KS as a deluxe preorder 6 months early because the game is ready to produce
- but then the additional upgraded components are the thing that can delay production, which would then make their exclusive backer period shorter

But I wonder whether their anti-retail stance on the KS will hurt them later when it comes to retail.
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Morten K
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I want a KS as simple as possible so none or few stretch goals and those should only be about improving the quality of the game, not adding more stuff. A game should be able stand on its own two legs and not need extra bits or an expansion. Make it simple so the game is clean and you are able to deliver on time please.
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I've always been wary of stretch goals. I see a lot of campaigns where the stretch goals have been to add in functionality that really should have been there from the start. And if they add it in KNOWING that they are going to deliver it anyway, isn't that dishonest and manipulative? I mean... you can sometimes tell that a particular stretch goal has already had nice artwork done, with rules designed and developed and tested already... if it doesn't reach the goal, are they really not going to put it in? Of course not!

IMO stretch goals should be REAL stretches, and to enhance or upugrade parts of the game that are non-essential. Making shaped meeples instead of generic. Upgrading the cardstock used. Including bags or sleeves or whatever.

I much prefer the style of kickstarter that Garphill Games just used for Architects of the West Kingdom. No stretch goals. Just this is what you get. I appreciated the honesty and simplicity of that, over a campaign where they try to artificially raise the excitement level by using stretch goals that really aren't stretch goals.
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Rupert Defossez
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mitcharf wrote:
bordspelkampion wrote:
Everything you say is true, and is a nobel idea ,an also the purpose of kickstarter. to get the product launched. so everybody can enjoy it. completely completely agree.

only in this "barrage" campaign there is no retailer or group pledge so this is ONLY for wealthier backers ,and that is not everybody, and that is not nobel.
you give an example where you could pay xtra to get first shipment, I understand. Did they have group or retail pledges?
In this campaign if you have no credit card you cannot buy the game, the end.

Unless I misunderstand things, you will still be able to get the game even if you don't pledge in the Kickstarter campaign -- you'll just have to wait longer. And that relates to my point -- the Kickstarter backers are paying to get the game made, as a reward they get the game early, and then everyone who didn't back also benefits once the game goes to retail.

Personally, I'm kind of curious about this Kickstarter model where the game is delivered so quickly to backers. I'm much more accustomed to receiving my Kickstarter games almost after I've forgotten about them. I guess time will tell if this strategy is better, worse, or just different than the normal one.


that is where it gets totally weird for me: I want to back this game , it is heavy euro , I like that. I want to support to get the game made. But people like me are totally ignored. Why? they miss out a lot of money this way ( I think ), and how is that good for the project.
Just for the Timing of the release.

thx mitcharf for philosophize on this subject
 
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Rupert Defossez
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losfp wrote:
I've always been wary of stretch goals. I see a lot of campaigns where the stretch goals have been to add in functionality that really should have been there from the start. And if they add it in KNOWING that they are going to deliver it anyway, isn't that dishonest and manipulative? I mean... you can sometimes tell that a particular stretch goal has already had nice artwork done, with rules designed and developed and tested already... if it doesn't reach the goal, are they really not going to put it in? Of course not!

IMO stretch goals should be REAL stretches, and to enhance or upugrade parts of the game that are non-essential. Making shaped meeples instead of generic. Upgrading the cardstock used. Including bags or sleeves or whatever.

I much prefer the style of kickstarter that Garphill Games just used for Architects of the West Kingdom. No stretch goals. Just this is what you get. I appreciated the honesty and simplicity of that, over a campaign where they try to artificially raise the excitement level by using stretch goals that really aren't stretch goals.


well said, same feeling here. And everybody who likes the product should be able to back it.
 
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Suppadej Mahapokai
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sietchlord wrote:
I am *strongly* thinking about dropping my pledge.


I'm thinking about the same. Sure, 3D map is nice, but it is only thickness that has altered. However, the main reason I'm considering to drop the pledge is that solo mode is way too far to be reached. I'm a kind of guy who also enjoys playing board game solo. Having no solo will mean that the game will be on the shelf for some time (or very long time).

Importantly, I just have experience a KS shipping 6 months later than the creators stated. The hype for the game is already gone and I'm not in the mood of playing that game anymore. I'm considering selling this game in "MINT" condition. If time is the real SG here, they have to be absolutely certain that production have to be on schedule or hype for the game will be lost.

Well, I now have a very strong tendency to drop the pledge, but it will give the creators some lessons (a valuable one). Maybe I will come back to this game again, who knows?
 
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bankzzzgtr wrote:
the main reason I'm considering to drop the pledge is that solo mode is way too far to be reached.


It's really not, assuming the campaign can recover from its current blunder.

The campaign needs €96,000 over 12.5 days. About €7,700 a day to reach the solo mode and before this slip up it was averaging around that amount and generally campaigns see a surge in the last 3 days that tends to at least double the daily average. This would be enough to put the campaign over the top for the solo mode but in order to get there people need a little faith in the campaign.

Worst comes to worst, if we don't hit the solo mode you can always drop out at the end.

Also if the solo mode is important to you I recommend you go to these links and share.

http://www.facebook.com/CranioCreations/photos/a.58800993787...

http://twitter.com/CranioCreations/status/105527206068608205...

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