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Subject: Rules clairification on Offering Cards & Lore Tie Breaker rss

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Clinton Jeffrey
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Hi!
After my initial readings of the rule book posted on the Red Raven site, I have the following questions:
1) During the draw phase, the instructions state that if you don't have an Offering card in your hand, you must drawn an Offering card as one of your 2 draws. If the card drawn shows an Elemental, you place it down in the array and draw again "repeat(ing) as necessary". Would this mean that you continue to draw beyond the 2 draws so that at the end of the draw phase you have an Offering in your hand, or would you stop at 2 draws if both featured elementals, even if this meant that you still have no Offering card?
2) In the Make an Offering phase, the text states that "this Offering helps attract an Elemental to this Shrine!" I don't see how that is actually applicable to the game. The only reference I can find in the rules about how Elementals move is when a combat resolves and the loser of the combat then moves the Elemental standee to any unoccupied space. There doesn't seem to be anything in the rules that this move is affected by the number of tokens at a Shrine. Is this line just supposed to be read as flavor text or hint to strategy, or did I miss something in the rules about Elemental movement?
3) At the end of the game, if players tie for points, the tie breaker goes to "the player with the higher Lore value, combining all Lore tokens". Should that be read as "amount of Lore tokens" (since they are a point a piece) or "sum of the values on the Lore tokens"?

Thanks! My copy is 2 days away from my house, and I'm so excited to try it!
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Alf Seegert
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Hi Clinton!
Thanks for posting these questions. As with many rulebook questions, I think that having the components in play will help make sense of things overall. Here are responses to these particular questions:

clintonjeffrey wrote:
1) During the draw phase, the instructions state that if you don't have an Offering card in your hand, you must drawn an Offering card as one of your 2 draws. If the card drawn shows an Elemental, you place it down in the array and draw again "repeat(ing) as necessary". Would this mean that you continue to draw beyond the 2 draws so that at the end of the draw phase you have an Offering in your hand, or would you stop at 2 draws if both featured elementals, even if this meant that you still have no Offering card?


Whenever you draw an Offering which shows an Elemental, it never counts as one of the two cards you draw. Instead it's immediately put into play and you must draw another Offering Card to replace it. If it's another Elemental, put it into play as well (and so on). Only count the card as "one card drawn" when you succeed in drawing a regular Offering (which will most often be the case).

clintonjeffrey wrote:
2) In the Make an Offering phase, the text states that "this Offering helps attract an Elemental to this Shrine!" I don't see how that is actually applicable to the game. The only reference I can find in the rules about how Elementals move is when a combat resolves and the loser of the combat then moves the Elemental standee to any unoccupied space. There doesn't seem to be anything in the rules that this move is affected by the number of tokens at a Shrine. Is this line just supposed to be read as flavor text or hint to strategy, or did I miss something in the rules about Elemental movement?


Yeah... I do mix flavor text with straight-up rules and sometimes it causes confusion. (It's because for me it helps the rules make sense -- I don't believe in treating rules and theme as entirely separate entities.) But it doesn't always work equally well!

In this case, I was trying to point out that the Offering Cards function as "votes" for the resolution of a particular type of Lore by attracting its particular Elemental to it -- when there are three total Offerings of a single type (combining both sides) that Lore Token is resolved.

Sorry for the confusion! Flavor text is also in effect at the resolution of Lore after three total Offerings are in play: "When Seekers attempt to gather too much Lore, the Elemental drives them away for their presumption!" This is the narrative equivalent of the player who "busts" having to discard all their Seeker Cards at that Lore Token (which I'm glad I also spell out in purely mechanical terms).

clintonjeffrey wrote:
3) At the end of the game, if players tie for points, the tie breaker goes to "the player with the higher Lore value, combining all Lore tokens". Should that be read as "amount of Lore tokens" (since they are a point a piece) or "sum of the values on the Lore tokens"?


If players tie at the end of the game, the greater sum of the numbers on each player's Lore Tokens function as tiebreaker.

clintonjeffrey wrote:

Thanks! My copy is 2 days away from my house, and I'm so excited to try it!


Thank you so much for your support! I hope you enjoy playing!

Like most of my games, it takes a full playthrough to wrap your head around the dynamics of play, but after that it should be pretty smooth sailing. I'd urge you to treat the first game as a learning game!
 
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Clinton Jeffrey
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Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! I agree with the idea of melding theme and mechanics, particularly in your games. I was saying to my wife that I usually have a little trouble the first go round with Alf games (I have Fantastiqa, Rival Realms and Road to Canterbury), but I assumed that my issue was being new to gaming when I picked those up--I read through the rules for them now, and think "how was this ever unclear?" But then I read the Haven rules...and you got me again!

Seriously, though, you are still, as I have told you in the past, my favorite designer, particularly because your games evoke a world I want to be in (Fantastiqa is my favorite game), and I expect I'll love this one as well...once that practice game is behind me!

Have a great day!
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Alf Seegert
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clintonjeffrey wrote:
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! I agree with the idea of melding theme and mechanics, particularly in your games. I was saying to my wife that I usually have a little trouble the first go round with Alf games (I have Fantastiqa, Rival Realms and Road to Canterbury), but I assumed that my issue was being new to gaming when I picked those up--I read through the rules for them now, and think "how was this ever unclear?" But then I read the Haven rules...and you got me again!

Seriously, though, you are still, as I have told you in the past, my favorite designer, particularly because your games evoke a world I want to be in (Fantastiqa is my favorite game), and I expect I'll love this one as well...once that practice game is behind me!

Have a great day!


These are very kind words. Thanks for making my day, Clinton!

I hope Haven will prove equally enjoyable, esp. after that inscrutable first playthrough (it reminds me a little of The Road to Canterbury, gameplay-wise).

Very best wishes!
 
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