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Subject: Forced to move twice rss

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Arek
Germany
Hessen
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In the rules it says that I MUST use both dice, unless thieves are blocked or paths are unavailable. But am I forced to take an option where 2 thieves are moved if by taking another option I cause a blockage which prevents the second from moving?

For example, I roll a blue and a yellow. One valid option is for me to move thief A across a blue door and thief B across a yellow door (assume that neither of my other 2 thieves can use blue or yellow).

A second option could be for me to move thief A across a yellow door - but by doing this I remove the possibility for thief B to move with the blue. Can I do this, or am I forced to take the first option?

It seems to depend on how you interpret the rule, whether it must be taken into account at the start of your turn or after a move.
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Nigel Roper
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Hi Arek,

In the spirit of the rule that you 'MUST use both dice, unless thieves are blocked, or paths are unavailable': in your turn, you must use whichever options for movement or action allow the use of both keys. In a turn, if one possibility for movement or action using one key blocks the use of the second key, then that is an illegal move.

Thanks for bringing up this point. I'll clarify this on the second printing of the rules in English and German, and update on our website within the next week or so.

Regards,
Nigel
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Raymond Haaken
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nigelmerlingames wrote:
Hi Arek,

In the spirit of the rule that you 'MUST use both dice, unless thieves are blocked, or paths are unavailable': in your turn, you must use whichever options for movement or action allow the use of both keys. In a turn, if one possibility for movement or action using one key blocks the use of the second key, then that is an illegal move.

Thanks for bringing up this point. I'll clarify this on the second printing of the rules in English and German, and update on our website within the next week or so.

Regards,
Nigel

I have to say I dislike that rule, and I honestly thought the player was always allowed to pick the colours/keys in any order, even if that means the second key can then not be used anymore. I wondered the exact same thing, but as I feel the luck factor already is pretty high, this could help improve the strategic options of the player.
But if not only you are bound by your results, but also MUST use both results if possible, that tips the balance even further towards the luck factor...
 
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Nigel Roper
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I decided the rule of ’The imperative of movement’ after quite a bit of playtesting. I enjoy reversals of fortune in stories and as the labyrinth is supposed to make things difficult for Thieves to navigate, I and most of my playtesters felt this imperative felt right. I also feel it heightens the highs of a game if there are also lows (moments of intense frustration). That's my taste.

In my experience how much anybody likes the balance of strategy versus chance in any game is very much a matter of taste. Indeed chance as an element can be like beetroot or Marmite, a thing you either love or hate: even the tiniest amount of beetroot flavour makes something inedible for me; I adore Marmite.

The degree of luck in Thieves is about the same as in Backgammon - which was my main inspiration. If anything players of Thieves have more control: as movement can be in one of four directions and reverse upon itself in the next turn, whereas in Backgammon movement is in one direction only.

Usually players can mitigate for bad luck with the dice, if they take care to place the two thieves actively pursuing or escaping with the gold on pathways where they fan move in all four directions. This allows them (to some degree) to use bad dice on these rather than having to suffer setbacks with the main two actors.

Again, chance as an element in play, is a matter of taste. You are not alone in disliking my rules with regards the dice. In fact a few people at shows have heatedly argued that there should be either no dice at all, or six dice from which you select the keys you want to use. At the heart of their argument was that they preferred games that were closer to pure strategy, and any element of chance that might disrupt their plans was disagreable. On balance more people I’ve played enjoy the action of chance in a game of Thieves than dislike it. I respect it's not your taste, you’re not wrong for not liking it in Thieves no more than I am for loathing beetroot in anything. If I changed that rule I wouldn't like the game as much as I love battling against and ranting about bad luck just as much as I love plans coming together. In games, I love having chance as an opponent as well as an ally.

Thanks for taking the time to question the rules. I know it's because you want games that you find satisfying.
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