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Subject: Official Errata rss

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David Hanacek
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I will post there official errata and clarifications:
(sorry about that, but a few minor mistakes sneaked into game)

Cards:
Company charter of Mildendo Railway (Red company): there should be 55 as a initial share price. Rules are correct about this. You will use it only at setup as a initial share price.

Rail tiles:
Desert tiles (3 cards): There should be also symbol for plain track (square) not only town (circle). Rules are correct about this. You will use it only with own scenarios.

River tiles (2 cards): There should be also symbol for plain track (square) not only town (circle). Rules are correct about this. You will use it only with own scenarios.

Rules:
Revenue Example 2 (page 12) shows wrong placing of Harbour tile by Checkerboard rule (Harbour is like a town - so plain track for Checkerboard rule).
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Antonio Izzo
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Will you reprint the wrong cards?
 
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David Hanacek
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We consider this maybe with upcoming language variants.

I mean that we print corrected cards for all version with upcoming printrun.
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Chris H
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Would it be possible to lay out a sticker set that we could print on our own?
 
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Julia
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inni wrote:
We consider this maybe with upcoming language variants.


Could you kindly expand, David? Not so sure if you mean that there will be a multilanguage edition of the game featuring the correct cards, or that the correct cards will be available only on non-English editions of the game, or that we could ask for replacements after non-English editions of the game will be released because in that way you'll have a proper supply of the correct cards.

Also (apologies for this) but I disagree on the opening "few minor mistakes": these are all game-affecting errors, especially the ones on the cards and the charter, and they are neither minor, nor few.

Please consider proper editing of your games. The 18XX community's always been friendly towards this type of requests (recently we had web-released a revised rulebook for a very beloved title) and I'm sure you'll find easily proofreaders who are also experts in this type of games and could help. To this moment, these errors, and the low quality of the rules are really off-putting, especially considering this title could be a gateway into the 18XX world for current non-gamers.
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mfl134
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Are these really big deals?

Quote:
Cards:
Company charter of Mildendo Railway (Red company): there should be 55 as a initial share price. Rules are correct about this.


This occurs at setup. So it won't affect the game.

Quote:
Rail tiles:
Desert tiles (3 cards): There should be also symbol for plain track (square) not only town (circle). Rules are correct about this.

River tiles (2 cards): There should be also symbol for plain track (square) not only town (circle). Rules are correct about this.


These both also determine where these can be placed, during setup. So that doesn't seem like a big deal either.

Quote:
Rules:
Revenue Example 2 (page 12) shows wrong placing of Harbour tile by Checkerboard rule (Harbour is like a town - so plain track for Checkerboard rule).


This is just a rules example. So obviously no game impact.
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Julia
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mfl134 wrote:
Are these really big deals?


Yes, because most of the people don't live on-line to verify errata and stuff. It's a small game, that should easily be proofread / edited with attention before being sent to print. I work as an editor, and if I deliver such errors, then I'll hear back from the company. First rule is checking keywords, then checking component consistency, then logical flow of the text, and finally wording. It's the ABC of editing. It'd be like sending a book to print, and nevermind for the typos, people will understand the story nonetheless.

mfl134 wrote:
This is just a rules example. So obviously no game impact.


Then we could very well remove examples from rulebooks at all, since they have no game impact? Examples are made to make rules clearer; in the moment rules and examples are in conflict, then yes, we have a problem. Other games suffered for these problems and debates on what was right went on and on for a while (read: years)
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mfl134
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
Are these really big deals?


Yes, because most of the people don't live on-line to verify errata and stuff. It's a small game, that should easily be proofread / edited with attention before being sent to pint. I work as an editor, and if I deliver such errors, then I'll hear back from the company. First rule is checking keywords, then checking component consistency, then logical flow of the text, and finally wording. It's the ABC of editing. It'd be like sending a book to print, and nevermind for the typos, people will understand the story nonetheless.

mfl134 wrote:
This is just a rules example. So obviously no game impact.


Then we could very well remove examples from rulebooks at all, since they have no game impact? Examples are made to make rules clearer; in the moment rules and examples are in conflict, then yes, we have a problem. Other games suffered for these problems and debates on what was right went on and on for a while (read: years)


Gotcha. I understand what you are saying.

Other games have mess it up a lot more, but that doesn't mean these errors are okay.

For all of these errors, I think somebody reading the rules will come to the correct conclusion. The biggest ambiguity is around harbors though.
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Julia
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mfl134 wrote:
Gotcha. I understand what you are saying.

Other games have mess it up a lot more, but that doesn't mean these errors are okay.


Yep, exactly Sometimes fixing / catching these things is very easy, and it's a pity if the general public enjoys these games less than they deserve. Don't get me wrong here: any 18XX player knows of the limited availability of some titles, is ok with a certain type of artwork, is ok in waiting years for a title to be published. But a game such as 18Lilliput could reach out to a different public (same as 18XX titles published by GMT games which are easy to find in a lot of countries), and this public will immediately go compare quality with quality of other products in the same price range, so, it's particularly important that these editions are solid: the genre could become more present on the market, and this means that we all can benefit from it.

This publisher also has some very interesting title in catalogue (not only 18CZ, but also Pax Renaissance, Bios: Megafauna, and so on) which are all greatly appealing to a certain public (people into heavier titles), so, having quality here would really be great.

In any case, my real question was about how to fix this: shall I wait to buy a second edition? Will there be a fix made available? Original wording was (for me, at least; possibly those who are more informed about this title will know better) confusing because it didn't give me specifics of the intentions of the publisher (the game's still on my wishlist, so, I'm happy to wait, if needed be)
 
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Who Am I?
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Still happy to have the game coming and very glad it was created...

...but can't disagree with Julia's point, and find it disappointing that several small and complex games I've ordered this Autumn will have print errors that would have been easy to fix and avoid with a bit of extra proofreading.

At least 18Lilliput is a first edition, unlike some of the others that really shouldn't have had print errors in their 2nd or 3rd printing. The errors also appear to be (so far) minor and shouldn't have any impact on gameplay for people who know about the corrections.
 
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David Hanacek
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You are right that there is nothing like small mistake.

Our goal is to make game without any error and believe or not there were a couple of round of proofreadings.

With rule example were proofreaders obviously too concetrate to revenue calculation that no one checked the tile placement.

With terrain cards there were some issue with manufacturer who did not use latest version of file

These are no exuses, only comments.

We will try to produce replacements and until then I will upload corrected rules and cards to file section.
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Julia
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Thank you David, much appreciated
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Geo
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inni wrote:
We will try to produce replacements


That's the right thing to do. I certainly don't want to end up with stickers on the tiles...

Quality control has became a luxury for most publishers lately. And this happens because they know that (unfortunately for the rest of us), there are many people who feel ok to buy a product with defects.

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Thank you David. I ordered it from Philibert and was excited for an entry into 18xx. Happy to see you are making the corrections and uploading to the file section.
 
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GeoMan wrote:
... I certainly don't want to end up with stickers on the tiles...


Is there a specific reason why not? I mean, obviously that's not ideal... but it wouldn't be a game-breaker here would it? If so, why?

(Asking because I honestly don't know; haven't played this game or others like it yet.)
 
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Eric Pullen

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Very disappointed.
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oneiric wrote:
GeoMan wrote:
... I certainly don't want to end up with stickers on the tiles...


Is there a specific reason why not? I mean, obviously that's not ideal... but it wouldn't be a game-breaker here would it? If so, why?

(Asking because I honestly don't know; haven't played this game or others like it yet.)


6 cards require stickers (so far). If stickers on the cards are not a problem, then why not PnP the game and save on the money paid for a professionally printed edition?

We pay for a complete, correct and professionally made game...


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Yani
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inni wrote:
You are right that there is nothing like small mistake.

Our goal is to make game without any error and believe or not there were a couple of round of proofreadings.

With rule example were proofreaders obviously too concetrate to revenue calculation that no one checked the tile placement.

With terrain cards there were some issue with manufacturer who did not use latest version of file

These are no exuses, only comments.

We will try to produce replacements and until then I will upload corrected rules and cards to file section.


Sorry to continue the rant David, but did anyone blind-proofread the rules? Did any native English speaker or gamer with non-18xx experience do so?

- the snake drafting at the start doesn't even mention it is drafting. I wasn't sure after reading it if you take the action card you choose or leave it on the table to be reused by other players.
- the rule about "touching another city at the edge" is universally referred to as "orthogonally adjacent" in the rulebooks I've read
- the solo game is almost unplayable with RAW imo (eg. I do not understand if Gulliver takes the other 2 actions left by the player, or if he takes all the actions mentioned below, if he takes any money or not, if he can build a station on a city tile that another player laid down, if it is the only option (the rules say "tile that he laid") and more)
- there's no upfront explanation which color tokens to use with which stickers (which I think breaks Laputa if done wrong)
- there's no explanation what tiles you need to leave out of the base game and which are for variants/special abilities, you have to deduce it by looking at the variants themselves. I am still not sure if you leave in harbors or not in the base game.

There's lots more. Sorry to rant, but the game wasn't exactly cheap with shipping from KS, and such obvious quality control issues are inexcusable these days...
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Roel van der Hoorn
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Personally, I don't find the current known errata that bad. The charter is an obvious mistake when you try to play the game, because all the other corporations actually start at 50 instead of 55. And the tiles are only for the scenarios, which you'll probably play only after a couple of plays of the base game. And so it's fairly easy to remember. I really don't mind this for a first edition.

coralsaw wrote:
Sorry to continue the rant David, but did anyone blind-proofread the rules? Did any native English speaker or gamer with non-18xx experience do so?

I do have 18xx experience and found the rulebook not great as well.

coralsaw wrote:
- there's no upfront explanation which color tokens to use with which stickers (which I think breaks Laputa if done wrong)

This would have been nice for sure. It wasn't that hard to figure out for some colors, but especially orange and brown were almost a blind guess.

coralsaw wrote:
- there's no explanation what tiles you need to leave out of the base game and which are for variants/special abilities, you have to deduce it by looking at the variants themselves.

Table 5 was not ideal, but quite helpful.

coralsaw wrote:
I am still not sure if you leave in harbors or not in the base game.

In. They are the special tiles for Skyresh Bolgolam.
 
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Max
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I don't mean to complain but I just want to add: I would have appreciated if the number of players an action card is used for was on the card, so I don't have to look this up in the rules.
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RvdH83 wrote:
I do have 18xx experience and found the rulebook not great as well.

So do I.

RvdH83 wrote:
In. They are the special tiles for Skyresh Bolgolam.

In, even if Skyresh is not in the game?
 
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coralsaw wrote:

- the snake drafting at the start doesn't even mention it is drafting. I wasn't sure after reading it if you take the action card you choose or leave it on the table to be reused by other players.

To be fair, on p13 of the rulebook under 'Bureaucracy', step (c) states: 'the action cards are put back to the middle of the table'. I'll admit that rule could have been mentioned up front, but the rule is there.
 
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GeoMan wrote:
oneiric wrote:
GeoMan wrote:
... I certainly don't want to end up with stickers on the tiles...


Is there a specific reason why not? I mean, obviously that's not ideal... but it wouldn't be a game-breaker here would it? If so, why?

(Asking because I honestly don't know; haven't played this game or others like it yet.)


6 cards require stickers (so far). If stickers on the cards are not a problem, then why not PnP the game and save on the money paid for a professionally printed edition?

We pay for a complete, correct and professionally made game...


Ok, so that answer convinces me that you are just overreacting and not having a measured response.


I would prefer a copy with no errors, but if the game is good enough to deserve my time then a few stickers won't bother me in the least. Everything I've seen suggests that the stickers are optional anyway, and not really necessary.

I'm shocked - shocked! - to find that people at BGG are making a mountain out of a molehill over minor production issues for a KickStarter game.
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thenpg wrote:
coralsaw wrote:

- the snake drafting at the start doesn't even mention it is drafting. I wasn't sure after reading it if you take the action card you choose or leave it on the table to be reused by other players.

To be fair, on p13 of the rulebook under 'Bureaucracy', step (c) states: 'the action cards are put back to the middle of the table'. I'll admit that rule could have been mentioned up front, but the rule is there.


You sir are a sleuth. One word that would have fixed it all: d-r-a-f-t.

If this was the only issue I wouldn't waste time to post and I wouldn't care. I did so because reading the rules to play the solo game frustrated me enough to think hang on, it would have taken a good proofreader an hour to spot the problems in the rulebook, why do I have to do it myself. And then the errata (in a low text/graphics complexity game, mind you!) were the cherry on top (which btw, to answer another poster, in the case you do_not like the game and wish to sell it, will lower its market value).

I do not intend to overreact (so more people get shocked) but fair is fair. Publishers, FIX YOUR RULES! Great games of the recent past, as I know from personal experience, have rightly lost their SdJ nomination for having game-affecting errors in the rules and with it lots of sales. Proper rules are not a last minute add-on, they are an essential part of the game experience.

/rant off

edit: typos etc, bleh
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